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Debate on Creationism

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Under churchianity... not the same..
"Under atheism", exactly the same. Those were your words. If you want to claim that a specific Christian was "not a true Christian" then by the same standards I can say that any atheist ruler was "not a true atheist". I remember something about a bee and a moat and vision or something like that.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I presume that he is referring to religious worldviews. Important to whom? Religions aren't important to me or anybody else who has learned to navigate life outside of all of them. What I find arrogant is somebody like this telling me that I should value or respect a belief system because somebody else needs it. That's fine for them, just as some people need glasses to see well. But I'd say that being able to see well without glasses is preferable, as is living without religion for those who can.

We don't need religions for there to be social cohesion. In fact, religions are a major source of bigotry, hatreds, and wars.



We don't need a god hypothesis for anything any more. We have naturalistic hypotheses and theories to account for how the world works every day (why the sun appears to go through the sky without invoking Apollo, how lightning forms without Thor, etc), how the universe and the life in it evolved from (material evolution = Big Bang cosmology, biological evolution), and for the origins of these seed states (multiverse generates the seeds of universes, chemical evolution = abiogenesis generates the first replicators).

Gods have been excluded from the daily operation of the universe (leading to the birth of deism) and its evolution. They have not been excluded from the twin origins problems, but they are not needed until naturalistic possibilities have been ruled out, a very unlikely occurance given that we only see supernaturalistic explanations being ruled out (no more Thor or Apollo) and replaced with naturalistic ones



You're begging the question if to you, created means deliberately created by a sentient, volitional, potent agent. Mindless processes also create. Plate tectonics tells us how the earth creates volcanoes, earthquakes, and mountain ranges, but no other creator (or Creator) than the earth's crust, the magma below it, and the laws of physics is needed.



You don't see the evidence that our present universe could have arisen due to blind natural forces absent an intelligent designer? I do, as do millions of other people.



Neither of those syllogisms is valid. Both contain logical fallacies. They are two forms of argument from ignorance, one saying that if you can't tell us how life came to exist, it must be due to a god, and the other being that if you can't produce evidence of a god, god are ruled out.



I can rule out the god of the Christian Bible with logic alone. That god is described as possessing mutually exclusive traits at the same time, such as having and granting free will while also knowing all future events, or who is perfect, but also makes errors that he regrets and tries to correct as with the flood story. The law of contradiction tells us that no such thing can exist.

This argument doesn't rule out the possibility of gods, just logically impossible ones.



Agreed. The religious have no monopoly on spirituality. Furthermore, I would add that they misinterpret the spiritual experience, which is one of euphoria, a sense of mystery and wonder, a sense of gratitude, a sense of awe, and a sense of connectivity. These are generated by our own minds - pleasant psychological states, but just psychological states nevertheless, not due to experiencing a god.

Scientific knowledge greatly enhances the spiritual experience of one's world. Looking out at the night sky and recognizing what you are experiencing - how connected we are to that star, how far the drop of light has traveled to inform one's eyes of its presence, and the understanding that we are made of stardust, is an authentic spiritual experience.

I find nothing spiritual in believing in spirits like gods, angels, and demons. Nor in a faith like Christianity that rips the adherent out of his universe, describing matter and flesh as base, man as sick, recommending detaching oneself from the world and not trusting one's own mind not to be a demon trying to steal his soul. He is told to deflect his attention and gratitude to a god and place that don't exist (see the logical ), and to live life as if he is waiting at some kind of cosmic bus stop waiting to be carried away to someplace better. I find nothing spiritual there. That's the opposite of connectivity. That's alienation at just about every level.
God does not know what hasn´t occurred. No laws created,
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Sorry. N
God does not know what hasn´t occurred. No laws created,
No laws created by men apply to God.

Therefore, the application of any law, be it those of logic, or any other, fail.

You nor I understand the nature of God, except what has been revealed. Christ is the ultimate expression of God, and in Him is what God is.

People always want to put God in the little boxes they construct, based upon human traits.

It is an exercise in pure futility., perhaps created by anger, pride, or a sense of some kind of bogus superiority.

No box , regardless or how elaborate or well thought out, or the numbers of those who helped construct it, can contain God.

He is completely and totally beyond being contained.

Logic, science, philosophy or any other process of the population of the earth is truly just whistling in the wind, when it comes to understanding the totality of who God is, and how he functions.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The religious have no monopoly on spirituality. Furthermore, I would add that they misinterpret the spiritual experience, which is one of euphoria, a sense of mystery and wonder, a sense of gratitude, a sense of awe, and a sense of connectivity. These are generated by our own minds - pleasant psychological states, but just psychological states nevertheless, not due to experiencing a god.
A good description of true spirituality. Thank you.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
a faith like Christianity that rips the adherent out of his universe, describing matter and flesh as base, man as sick, recommending detaching oneself from the world and not trusting one's own mind not to be a demon trying to steal his soul.
Yes, it's weird that all religions and spiritual paths seem to think that humans are somehow created imperfect and need to do or believe stuff to become perfect.

Your description is very good.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"We don't need religions for there to be social cohesion" Under Atheism quite a large number of people died in the 20th century.

What was under atheism in the 20th century? Nothing.

Did you misspell Communism? Secular humanist are largely atheists. We have no philosophical or religious wars. We leave that to the theologies of despair like Christianity and ideologies of violence

God does not know what hasn´t occurred

Sure he does. Or maybe he doesn't. Or maybe he doesn't even exist. Nobody knows My guess is as good as yours. Literally.

People always want to put God in the little boxes they construct, based upon human traits.

People always want to absolve their gods of any constraints while holding everything else to them - a special pleading fallacy. I don't. Such constraints must be reasonable at a minimum, not a self-contradiction or a fantasy proclaimed as fact with no support.

Logic, science, philosophy or any other process of the population of the earth is truly just whistling in the wind, when it comes to understanding the totality of who God is, and how he functions.

No. It is faith that is whistling in the wind. All progress has come from the application of reason to empirical evidence. How can faith possibly reveal truth given that any two mutually exclusive ideas, at least one of which must be false, can be believed by faith,
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Showing how your argumentation fails, seems pretty relevant to the point you're trying to make with that argumentation.

But you've made clear with your "blablabla" how much you care about your argumentation actually being valid.
What gibberish, do you even know what the OP said ? Doesn´t look like it.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
What was under atheism in the 20th century? Nothing.

Did you misspell Communism? Secular humanist are largely atheists. We have no philosophical or religious wars. We leave that to the theologies of despair like Christianity and ideologies of violence



Sure he does. Or maybe he doesn't. Or maybe he doesn't even exist. Nobody knows My guess is as good as yours. Literally.



People always want to absolve their gods of any constraints while holding everything else to them - a special pleading fallacy. I don't. Such constraints must be reasonable at a minimum, not a self-contradiction or a fantasy proclaimed as fact with no support.



No. It is faith is whistling in the wind. All progress has come from the application of reason to empirical evidence. How can faith possibly reveal truth given that any two mutually exclusive ideas, at least one of which must be false, can be believed by faith,

"What was under atheism in the 20th century? nothing"

Not true, not even close. Communist philosophy is largely atheistic.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
"Under atheism", exactly the same. Those were your words. If you want to claim that a specific Christian was "not a true Christian" then by the same standards I can say that any atheist ruler was "not a true atheist". I remember something about a bee and a moat and vision or something like that.

So you would disagree with Obama when he said terrorists are not real Muslims?
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
If he said that then he was wrong. But then I won't give Christians that out either. You don't ge to disown the killers that were Christians either.

People have done violence in the name of Christ but not based on the words of Christ.
And so.... I do think there is a difference between churchianity and Christianity.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
....You're begging the question if to you, created means deliberately created by a sentient, volitional, potent agent. Mindless processes also create. Plate tectonics tells us how the earth creates volcanoes, earthquakes, and mountain ranges, but no other creator (or Creator) than the earth's crust, the magma below it, and the laws of physics is needed.

In this world, there are many forces that form (shape) this earth. None of them are capable to create anything. Creating is not the same as to form things from existing materials.

You don't see the evidence that our present universe could have arisen due to blind natural forces absent an intelligent designer? I do, as do millions of other people.
....

Yes, there is no evidence for such incredible coincidence. If natural blind forces could cause something else than degeneration, it should be possible to observe that scientifically in nature.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In this world, there are many forces that form (shape) this earth. None of them are capable to create anything. Creating is not the same as to form things from existing materials.

You need to define what you mean by the vague term "creating". We know that the various driving forces of evolution are more than capable of creating the diversity of life that we see.

Yes, there is no evidence for such incredible coincidence. If natural blind forces could cause something else than degeneration, it should be possible to observe that scientifically in nature.

Actually there is no evidence for your Designer. But then creationists won't let themselves understand the concept of evidence.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Things that are man-made, are not created, they are made. If you make something up from things that have been created, it is not creating, it is forming/building/constructing/making.
Then it appears by your definition that there are no "created" things at all.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
In this world, there are many forces that form (shape) this earth. None of them are capable to create anything. Creating is not the same as to form things from existing materials.

Pretty much everything on this planet, including the planet itself, was formed from existing materials.
In fact, the materials themselves were also formed from pre-existing materials, in the cores of stars and in super novae. And those stars also formed from pre-existing materials, through gravity.

So what exactly are you talking about? What is that you are claiming was "created ex nihilo" by your god, and how do you know?

Yes, there is no evidence for such incredible coincidence. If natural blind forces could cause something else than degeneration, it should be possible to observe that scientifically in nature.

And we do. Every day.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
And when common sense is rejected, I think it is not good and wise
Here's your pretty fatal mistake.

What is "common sense"? It is that which one can logically / rationally deduce based on the things that are actually known already.

Your "common sense" is incapable of keeping into account those things that YOU DO NOT KNOW.

Relativity defied our common sense.
Quantum mechanics defied our common sense.
Evolution defied our common sense.
Heliocentrism defied our common sense.
Plate tectonics defied our common sense.

Just about EVERY big breakthrough in science, defied our common sense.

If relativity was "common sense", then it wouldn't have taken an Einstein to figure it out.

TODAY, now that we know about relativity, it is common sense that a GPS satelite that orbits the earth at 40k km/h requires an atomic clock that is calibrated differently then clocks on the planet, to make them run at a different speed then those on earth, to accomodate for relativistic effects. If we build such satelites without accomodating for relativistic effects, then GPS would be off by several miles.

So, common sense is that which seems rational given the knowledge you have.
Common sense can't accomodate for things that you DON'T know yet.


Irrationality usually leads to bad solutions.

You know what is truelly irrational?
To think that your "common sense" takes priority over the evidence of reality.

If the evidence of reality defies your common sense, it's not reality that is incorrect.............
 
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