Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

THE Art Vandelay said:

...And for Revelation 3:14, Jesus being the "beginning of the creation by God" ...

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[12-B] The beginning of the creation of God?

Those which deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, will quote a portion of Revelation 3:14, claiming that it teaches that Jesus is the first thing created:



The English word “beginning” is translated from the koine Greek [G746] “ἀρχὴ”, “arche”, and it is translated as:

Total KJV Occurrences: 59


The same part of the phrase is found throughout, and is connected directly to God, the Uncreated Creator:


This same word is used in several ways, one of which means to be the “beginning”, or the Person who starts everything, the First Cause, or the Originator of all things, in other words, the Person through whom all things created came into existence and who is the Head of all creation. This describes the Son - Jesus, since He is God, the Word, and also the second/last Adam:



This is being directly applied to Jesus Christ, who is “the same” in Hebrews 1:6-13, 13:8 KJB, see also Psalms 102:12,24-28 KJB

In the Gospel and Epistles of John, we read that Jesus, the Word, is the Person which created “all things” and was eternally “with” the Father, and that Jesus is indeed “God”, not the person of the Father, neither the person of the Holy Spirit, but the person of the Son [the Word]:


Jesus created all things and is before all things, and is the head, having the preeminence in all things:


When asked the question, did The Son have a beginning of days, the Scriptures resoundingly give us the answer through the type of Melchizedek, from the Father Himself and other texts, that 'No, He is Life Eternal.' [see also: John 5:39; 1 John 5:11 KJB]:

Much more on Jesus is God, not the Person/Being of the Father, nor the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost, here (free to distribute)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [X4] – Appendix 4 – The Son of the Father, Jesus, who is JEHOVAH Emmanuel, the Eternal and great I AM, God manifest in the flesh (PDF)

Crosstian said:

[12-B] The beginning of the creation of God?

Those which deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, will quote a portion of Revelation 3:14, claiming that it teaches that Jesus is the first thing created:

Revelation 3:14 KJB - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Revelation 3:14 GNT - Καὶ τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς ἐν Λαοδικείᾳ ἐκκλησίας γράψον· τάδε λέγει ὁ ἀμήν, ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστὸς καὶ ἀληθινός, ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ·​

Revelation 3:14 GNT-TR+ - καιG2532 CONJ τωG3588 T-DSM αγγελωG32 N-DSM τηςG3588 T-GSF εκκλησιαςG1577 N-GSF λαοδικεωνG2994 N-GPM γραψονG1125 V-AAM-2S ταδεG3592 D-APN λεγειG3004 V-PAI-3S οG3588 T-NSM αμηνG281 HEB οG3588 T-NSM μαρτυςG3144 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM πιστοςG4103 A-NSM καιG2532 CONJ αληθινοςG228 A-NSM ηG3588 T-NSF αρχηG746 N-NSF τηςG3588 T-GSF κτισεωςG2937 N-GSF τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM​

The English word “beginning” is translated from the koine Greek [G746] “ἀρχὴ”, “arche”, and it is translated as:

Total KJV Occurrences: 59

beginning, 39

Matthew 19:4, 24:8 (2),21; Mark 1:1, 10:6, 13:19; Luke 1:2; John 1:1-2 (2), 2:11, 6:64, 8:25,44, 15:27, 16:4; Philippians 4:15 (2); Colossians 1:18; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 1:10, 3:14, 7:3; 2 Peter 3:4; 1 John 1:1, 2:7 (2),13-14 (2),24 (2), 3:8,11; 2 John 1:5-6 (2); Revelation 1:8, 3:14, 21:6, 22:13
​

principalities, 6

Romans 8:38; Ephesians 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16, 2:15; Titus 3:1
​

first, 4

Acts 26:4; Hebrews 2:3, 5:12; Jude 1:6
​

corners, 2

Acts 10:11, 11:5
​

principality, 2

Ephesians 1:21; Colossians 2:10
​

began, 1

Hebrews 2:3
​

beginnings, 1

Mark 13:8
​

magistrates, 1

Luke 12:11
​

power, 1

Luke 20:20
​

principles, 1

Hebrews 6:1
​

rule, 1

1 Corinthians 15:24​

The same part of the phrase is found throughout, and is connected directly to God, the Uncreated Creator:

Revelation 1:8 KJB - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 21:6 KJB - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [“ἡ ἀρχὴ”] and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 KJB - He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 22:13 KJB - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [“ἀρχὴ”] and the end, the first and the last.​

This same word is used in several ways, one of which means to be the “beginning”, or the Person who starts everything, the First Cause, or the Originator of all things, in other words, the Person through whom all things created came into existence and who is the Head of all creation. This describes the Son - Jesus, since He is God, the Word, and also the second/last Adam:

Matthew 19:4 KJB - And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning [“απ αρχης”] made them male and female,

Mark 10:6 KJB - But from the beginning [“απο δε αρχης”] of the creation God made them male and female.

Mark 13:19 KJB - For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning [“απ αρχης”] of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Hebrews 1:10 KJB - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning [και συ κατ αρχας κυριε] hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

See also:

Psalms 102:25 KJB - Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.​

This is being directly applied to Jesus Christ, who is “the same” in Hebrews 1:6-13, 13:8 KJB, see also Psalms 102:12,24-28 KJB

In the Gospel and Epistles of John, we read that Jesus, the Word, is the Person which created “all things” and was eternally “with” the Father, and that Jesus is indeed “God”, not the person of the Father, neither the person of the Holy Spirit, but the person of the Son [the Word]:

John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning [“εν αρχη”] was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning [“εν αρχη”] with God.

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1 John 1:1 KJB - That which was from the beginning [“απ αρχης”], which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 John 1:2 KJB - (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 John 1:3 KJB - That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

Jesus created all things and is before all things, and is the head, having the preeminence in all things:

Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Colossians 1:14 KJB - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning [“εστιν αρχη”], the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Colossians 2:6 KJB - As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Colossians 2:7 KJB - Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Colossians 2:8 KJB - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:9 KJB - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:​

When asked the question, did The Son have a beginning of days, the Scriptures resoundingly give us the answer through the type of Melchizedek, from the Father Himself and other texts, that 'No, He is Life Eternal.' [see also: John 5:39; 1 John 5:11 KJB]:

Hebrews 7:3 KJB - Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Psalms 90:2 KJB - Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Psalms 93:2 KJB - Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Psalms 45:6 KJB - Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Lamentations 5:19 KJB - Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation.

Hebrews 1:8 KJB - But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Micah 5:2 KJB - But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.​

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Incorrect on every single count, but you already knew that. The kind of pretzel twisting you have to do to the scriptures in order to deny what it clearly says is absurd. Just admit you reject what the Bible says in favor of inane ideas.

Crosstian said:

Let's deal with the "firstborn" stuff:

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses

[12-A] Firstborn?

The WTS [Watch Tower & Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witness's organization] will often quote Colossians 1:15, and ask. “How can Jesus be God, since Jesus is called the 'firstborn of every creature'?” They incorrectly teach that Jesus is the 'first created' who created all [other] things, see their NWT [New World Translation].

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:2,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.

However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:

Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Genesis 48:17 KJB - And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Genesis 48:18 KJB - And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Genesis 48:19 KJB - And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Genesis 48:20 KJB - And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.​

Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.

Genesis 49:3 KJB - Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

1 Chronicles 5:1 KJB - Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.​

Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 KJB].

Numbers 3:41 KJB - And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:42 KJB - And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:43 KJB - And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.

Numbers 3:44 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Numbers 3:45 KJB - Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.

Numbers 8:14 KJB - Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

Numbers 8:15 KJB - And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.

Numbers 8:16 KJB - For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

Numbers 8:17 KJB - For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

Numbers 8:18 KJB - And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.​

The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.

Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.​

David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.

Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.​

Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.​

The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.

1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief​

Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in otherwords “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.

Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.

So, in considering the word “Firstborn”, what does this mean when it refers to Jesus in Colossians 1:15? Context tells us.

The actual Greek word for “first created” is “protoktioti”, but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully instead, by aide of the Holy Spirit Himself [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], the Greek word for the “chosen” headship connotation: “prototokos” [“Firstborn”, see also Hebrews 1:6 KJB “first begotten into the world”; Revelation 1:5 “first begotten of the dead”]. For we are to inherit all things through Jesus Christ, for notice:

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.​

So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15 KJB, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant “firstborn” in the sense of “headship and pre-eminence of promise” or “first created”.

We go to Colossians 1:18 KJB:

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line: “... head of the body … who is the beginning … have the preeminence.”

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Your rejection of the clear teaching of the scriptures is noted by the absurd amount of pretzel-twisting you employ with that nonsense. God's Word says Jesus was the first of God's creative works. You say otherwise, ergo you reject God's Word, the Bible.

THE Art Vandelay said:

Your rejection of the clear teaching of the scriptures is noted by the absurd amount of pretzel-twisting you employ with that nonsense. God's Word says Jesus was the first of God's creative works. You say otherwise, ergo you reject God's Word, the Bible.

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It is obvious who holds the truth of scripture, and who does not. My presenting of scripture will remain as they are, and what will you do with them, will be up to you. I pray you do what is right. Who is the King of Glory (Psalms 24)?

The King of Glory?


According to Psalms 24 KJB, the “... King of Glory ...” is verily “... The LORD [JEHOVAH] of hosts ...” Himself who descended to the earth, was upon the earth and later ascended into Heaven, and the eternal city, far above all:

Consider Psalms 68:18-20 KJB:


This is directly cited in the New Testament in reference to Jesus Christ, which ascended far above all principality and power in Ephesians 4:8-10 KJB:




And then let us consider John 3:11-13 KJB:


And Ephesians 1:20-23 KJB:


And Revelation 12:5 KJB:


And Acts 1:9-11 KJB:


See also John 14:1-4 KJB:


Who is the King of Glory? The LORD, The LORD [JEHOVAH] God, the Son – Jesus, who descended, to later ascend, even as He has done in many other places in scriptures, and times before taking upon himself humanity, for He was in "the form of God" (Philippians 2:6 KJB) from eternity. See Genesis chapters 3, 11, 17-19; Exodus 20, etc. KJB and the remainder of this study.

Crosstian said:

It is obvious who holds the truth of scripture, and who does not. My presenting of scripture will remain as they are, and what will you do with them, will be up to you.

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And the obviousness points to your not holding the truth of scripture, but rather the dishonest twisting of it. Your dishonest presenting of scripture remains as is. The actual scriptures and what they say will remain in contradiction of your statements.

THE Art Vandelay said:

And the obviousness points to your not holding the truth of scripture, but rather the dishonest twisting of it. Your dishonest presenting of scripture remains as is. The actual scriptures and what they say will remain in contradiction of your statements.

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You will have to be specific, where you think (without evidence documented so far) I am twisting scripture. Please do not be generic, but specific in that which I have already provided, otherwise an accusation is simply that and nothing more. Thank you.

The Good Shepherd?


God's people, “the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand ...”


Those heard the voice of the Good Shepherd:


The great I AM, Jesus, is the Good Shepherd, who knows His, and are known of His:


Which “good shepherd” gave “His life for the sheep”? To whom does the “little flock” belong then, and whose “voice” “shall” “they” “hear”? It is the very voice of Jesus, calling them, “...follow me.”


Who saw us like “... sheep without a shepherd ...” [1 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 18:16; Mark 6:34] and came to “... to seek and to save that which was lost ...” [Luke 19:10]?

Scripture hath said,


Who is it that even had “... appeared of old ...”, and has loved us “... with an everlasting love ...”? Who is it that with “... lovingkindness ...” has “... drawn thee ...”? It is Jesus Christ:


Think about what is going to the “... uttermost parts of the earth ...” and “... all the ends of the earth ...” even now:


Who is it that is coming to gather all of His Sheep from the four corners of the earth, from the four winds of heaven and shall separate the sheep from the goats?


We are the sheep of His pasture... and we know His voice... for the Shepherd calls us. He calls those of His sheep to “... come out of her, my people ...”. Do we belong to Him or to another?







Jesus is no hireling, but He is the Good and Great Shepherd of the Sheep:

Do we not desire to heed the voice [Psalms 95:7; Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7, etc KJB], He is the Way, The Truth and the Life, that Good Shepherd:

Crosstian said:

You will have to be specific, where you think (without evidence documented so far) I am twisting scripture. Please do not be generic, but specific in that which I have already provided, otherwise an accusation is simply that and nothing more. Thank you.

The Good Shepherd?

Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

1 Kings 22:17 "And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said ..."

2 Chronicles 18:16 "Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, ..."

Psalms 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.​

God's people, “the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand ...”

Psalms 80:1 To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

Isaiah 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.​

Compare:

Matthew 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me ..."

Mark 10:14 "... Suffer the little children to come unto me ..."

Luke 18:16 "... Suffer little children to come unto me ..."

John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

John 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21:17 "... Peter ... said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."
​

Isaiah 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Ezekiel 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

Ezekiel 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Mark 6:34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.​

Those heard the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.​

The great I AM, Jesus, is the Good Shepherd, who knows His, and are known of His:

Isaiah 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

Which “good shepherd” gave “His life for the sheep”? To whom does the “little flock” belong then, and whose “voice” “shall” “they” “hear”? It is the very voice of Jesus, calling them, “...follow me.”

Psalms 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,​

Who saw us like “... sheep without a shepherd ...” [1 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 18:16; Mark 6:34] and came to “... to seek and to save that which was lost ...” [Luke 19:10]?

Scripture hath said,

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.​

Who is it that even had “... appeared of old ...”, and has loved us “... with an everlasting love ...”? Who is it that with “... lovingkindness ...” has “... drawn thee ...”? It is Jesus Christ:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

Think about what is going to the “... uttermost parts of the earth ...” and “... all the ends of the earth ...” even now:

Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Mark 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.​

Who is it that is coming to gather all of His Sheep from the four corners of the earth, from the four winds of heaven and shall separate the sheep from the goats?

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

We are the sheep of His pasture... and we know His voice... for the Shepherd calls us. He calls those of His sheep to “... come out of her, my people ...”. Do we belong to Him or to another?

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:​

Compare:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:​

Compare:

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:​

Compare:

See again Psalms 95, for whose voice to follow:

“... Follow me ...”: Matthew 9:9, 16:24, 19:21; Mark 2:14,

“... his disciples follow him ...”: Mark 6:1, 8:34, 10:21, Luke 5:27, 9:23,59, 18:22; John 1:43, 10:27, 12:26, 13:36, 21:19,

“... follow thou me ...”: John 21:22,

“... follow the Lamb ...”: Revelation 14:4​

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Compare:

Deuteronomy 1:30 "The LORD your God which goeth before you ..."

Deuteronomy 1:33 "Who went in the way before you, ... in fire by night, ... in a cloud by day."

Matthew 28:7 "... he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you ..."

Mark 16:7 "... he goeth before you ..."

John 18:37 "... Jesus answered... Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."​

Jesus is no hireling, but He is the Good and Great Shepherd of the Sheep:

Do we not desire to heed the voice [Psalms 95:7; Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7, etc KJB], He is the Way, The Truth and the Life, that Good Shepherd:

Psalms 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

Psalms 23:2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.​

Click to expand...

The fact that you're simply pulling out random scriptures out of nowhere and claiming they support your nonsense, is proof enough. Thanks for proving my point so well.

THE Art Vandelay said:

The fact that you're simply pulling out random scriptures out of nowhere and claiming they support your nonsense, is proof enough. Thanks for proving my point so well.

Click to expand...

Why are you avoiding what I have shared and not addressing them directly, and not providing any specific points from them based upon your accusation? Surely you can point to just one "twisting" of scripture that you say I have done, so we can look at in depth, in context?

Another:

The God with us?


“... The LORD of Hosts ...”, this “... God of Jacob ...”, even the “... God with us ...”:



The New Testament usage of this:

... continued ...

THE Art Vandelay said:

The fact that you're simply pulling out random scriptures out of nowhere and claiming they support your nonsense, is proof enough. Thanks for proving my point so well.

Click to expand...

Why are you avoiding what I have shared and not addressing them directly, and not providing any specific points from them based upon your accusation? Surely you can point to just one "twisting" of scripture that you say I have done, so we can look at in depth, in context?

... continued ...

The very context that the Apostle Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, quotes from the OT and to whom he directly equates it with:





















Paul, directly citing the Old Testament, in the context of the words JEHOVAH God, “... I am with thee ...”, are spoken by “... Jesus Christ the same ...”

Crosstian said:

Why are you avoiding what I have shared and not addressing them directly, and not providing any specific points from them based upon your accusation? Surely you can point to just one "twisting" of scripture that you say I have done, so we can look at in depth, in context?

... continued ...

The very context that the Apostle Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, quotes from the OT and to whom he directly equates it with:

Hebrews 13:5 KJB - Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Hebrews 13:6 KJB - So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Compare:​

Psalms 30:10 KJB - Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.

Psalms 54:4 KJB - Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.

Matthew 15:25 KJB - Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.​

Hebrews 13:7 KJB - Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.​

Side note, Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself [Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB] equates Jesus Christ as the JEHOVAH God, the Son, who changes not, the same, even the same yesterday, to day and for ever, the very Helper and Comforter.​

Hebrews 1:10 KJB - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Hebrews 1:11 KJB - They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

Side note:

The “And ...” [Hebrews 1:10 KJB] continues the expression of “But unto the Son he saith ...” [Hebrews 1:8 KJB], which means that Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself [Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], is still citing the Old Testament passages, specifically those of David, in reference to the Father speaking to and about His Son, Jesus Christ:​

Compare:

Psalms 102:12 KJB - But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.​

Side note, “... O LORD ...” [Psalms 102:12 KJB] is direct reference to JEHOVAH the Son, see Psalms 102:1,12,15,16,19,21,22 KJB:

Psalms 102:12 (102:13) HOT [read from Right to Left] -

ואתה יהוה לעולם תשׁב וזכרך לדר ודר׃​

Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100], notice how it translates the Hebrew JEHOVAH into the Greek “κύριε”, “kurie” or English “LORD”, which is used to identify Jesus Christ throughout the New Testament.​

Psalms 102:12 (101:13) LXX* - σὺ δέ, κύριε, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα μένεις, καὶ τὸ μνημόσυνόν σου εἰς γενεὰν καὶ γενεάν.​

Consider carefully the importance of these texts, in what they are teaching, in that no one can say that Jesus is JEHOVAH [the Son], the “Lord”, but by the Holy Ghost, for a person of the 'Watch Tower', or 'Arian', or 'Unitarian', etc., may say that 'Jesus is lord', but they will not acknowledge Him as the LORD, JEHOVAH [the Son] – Deity – Eternal, I AM, Almighty God, etc, and nor do they keep the Ten Commandments [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; 1 John 2:4, 3:4 KJB] and therefore they need to read John 8:24,58; Acts 5:32 KJB very seriously and prayerfully:​

1 Corinthians 12:3 KJB - Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:3 GNT - διὸ γνωρίζω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἐν Πνεύματι Θεοῦ λαλῶν λέγει ἀνάθεμα ᾿Ιησοῦν, καὶ οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν Κύριον ᾿Ιησοῦν εἰ μὴ ἐν Πνεύματι ἁγίῳ.​

Philippians 2:11 KJB - And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:11 GNT - καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι Κύριος ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν Θεοῦ πατρός.​

Even as it is written:​

Isaiah 45:21 KJB - Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 45:22 KJB - Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:23 KJB - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Jeremiah 31:3 KJB - The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

John 12:32 KJB - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

Psalms 102:24 KJB - I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

Psalms 102:25 KJB - Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Psalms 102:26 KJB - They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Psalms 102:27 KJB - But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.​

Compare:​

Malachi 3:6 KJB - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.​

John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Romans 10:13 KJB -For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

Side note: see also Genesis 4:26, 12:8, 26:25; Psalms 116:4,13,17; Zephaniah 3:9 KJB​

Acts 19:5 KJB - When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:2 KJB - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:​

Paul, directly citing the Old Testament, in the context of the words JEHOVAH God, “... I am with thee ...”, are spoken by “... Jesus Christ the same ...”

Click to expand...

I'm not avoiding anything, yet you're continuing to do exactly what I pointed out: randomly quoting scriptures here and there that do nothing to bolster the nonsense you're putting out. And I notice that one of the main problems you have is your use of one of the most inaccurate, unreliable, and antiquated Bible translations available.....the KJB. No wonder you're so confused, when you use a translation that is known for adding to/taking away from the original language renderings.

THE Art Vandelay said:

I'm not avoiding anything ...

Click to expand...

Where is the evidence of your accusation that I asked for, several times now? Still waiting.

THE Art Vandelay said:

... And I notice that one of the main problems you have is your use of one of the most inaccurate, unreliable, and antiquated Bible translations available.....the KJB. ...

Click to expand...

Distraction. Non-sequitur. It's also simply untrue.


Feel free to read (just scroll down to section):

The preserved word of God (Psalms 12:6-7) in the English language – The King James Bible (KJB) – AV1611 – Vindicated Files (PDF & Powerpoint):

Why would you not give evidence of your accusation, and then try to derail the subject to another completely unrelated subject, and again without evidence, only accusation?

I already see what you are attempting to do, but it won't work. I have hundreds of pages on this.

In fact, in matters of "antiquity'" of the KJB language, I have several books on this, one of which very clearly proves its modernity, and demonstrates from modern newspapers, headlines, movies and common lingo, that the KJB is very much up to date, not only in the UK but in the States and English speaking countries, for instance:

Archaic words? You supposedly mean like these?

abode kernels ancients laden aright lance asunder lusty away with mantle beckon mattock begotten naught bier nurtured bewitched odious bowels osprey calved pangs celestial phylacteries coney plowshare confections rend convince respite cormorant rushes decked soothsayer deride spoil distill suckling dung temperate effect tetrarch estate trafficked forevermore unto fowl usury girdle vaunt hallowed vestments haunt vex heresies wanton infamy yokefellow inasmuch insatiable jeopardy

abase deride heresies pipes temperate abated didst hinds plowshare tenons abode distill importune presbytery teraphim adjure doest impotent principalities tetrarch alms dost inasmuch putrefaction thee ancient doth issue raiment thereon apparel dung jeopardy rampart thine aright effect know ravening thou art eminent laden remission thy asunder engines laud rend timbrel away with estate layer reprobate trafficked backbiting evermore lightness requite travail beget familiar litters riot unto beseech feigned lordly rushes usury bewail fetch lunatic seemly vagabond bewitched firstlings lusty seest valor bondwomen fleshhook mail seethe vaunt bowels footmen maintenance shalt venture breeches forbearance mammon sherd verily brimstone fowl mantle shod vermillion calves fuller maranatha shouldst vex canst gaiety mattock shouldest virtue cleave garners milch smith wanton comely gavest mill solace warp constrains girdle nether soothsayer wayfarers cormorant graven nurtured sore whence couches gross odious speakest wherewith covert guile offscouring stay woof crib handmaid pangs strait wrought dainty harrow paramours suckling yea dearth hast perdition swaddling yonder deck haunt phylacteries tares

abase daubed henceforth principality vestments abode dayspring heresies prognostication vex alms debased immutable psaltery virtue amiss decks impudent quarter visage anise deride inasmuch rampart wanton apparel dispensation issue rid warp aright disquiet jeopardy rifled wayfaring austere distill jot riotous whence away with dung know rushes whereupon backbiters effect laden satiate whet beckoned epistle laud shamefaced winebibber beggarly eventide laver shod woof begot evermore litters smith wrought bemoan familiar lordly soothsayer yea beseech fan lusty spoil yonder bewail feigned mail straits bewitched fetch mammon suckling bittern flanks mantle tares bondwomen flay mattock temperate brimstone footmen mill tenons calves forbearance mite terrestrial carnal foursquare nativity tetrarch celestial fowl offend therein circumspect fuller offscouring timbrel cloven gad omnipotent tittle comeliness godhead or ever unto concourses graven pangs usury confederacy greyhound paramours vagabond convince gross phylacteries valor covert hallowed pipes vehement crib haunts plowshare verity dainties hemlock potentate vermillion

abase disquieted henceforth ravening abate dissembles hoarfrost remission abode distill impudent rend adjuration dromedaries inasmuch riotous alms dung isles rushes apparel effect know sacrilege assuaged enjoined laden satiate asunder ensign lance seethe augment ensues laud sherd away with estate laver sloth backbiting eventide litters smith beget evermore lusty solace beggarly execration mail soothsayer bemoan familiar maintenance stay beseech firmament mantle straits bewail firstling mattock stripling bewitched flagon milch suppliants bier flay mill surfeit bowels footmen naught swaddling calving forbear noontide temperate cleft foursquare obeisance teraphim clemency fowl oblation thereupon comely fuller odious thrice coneys gad or ever timbrel constrains garner pangs trafficked cormorant goodly paramours unshod covert gross perdition crib guile phylacteries dainty hallowed pipes debased haltingly plowshare decked harrow pound delectable haunt rampart
None of those are being cited from the King James BIble [though they exist therein].

Row 1 is the NIV 1973.

Row 2 is the NASB [from revised ASV 1901].

Row 3 is the NKJV 1982.

Row 4 is the NRSV 1999 ["milch"].

What was that argument from "archaic" again? Tell me please ...

THE Art Vandelay said:

...the KJB. ....

Click to expand...

All of the words in Colossians 1:15-18, etc are perfect in the King James as they are.

You, instead, have to attack "translation".

Thank you for proving my point and agreeing with what I said, and not giving a single evidence of a single mss, papyri, codice, palimpsest, etc., in any language in the world, with the word "other" in Colossians 1:16, other than as found in "addition" in the NWT, by the WTS.

You should ask the WTS the question, why they felt the need to make an addition, which clearly alters the text to prove their apriori. It wasn't in the translation, and definitely changes the meaning 180 degrees, which is a far cry from simply adding the italicized word "other" [etc] in other places which simply attempts to convey a more smooth reading, as in Genesis 20:16 KJB, etc.

If we took the italicized words ["other"] out of all KJB texts, it would not change the meaning of those sentences 180 degrees, as does the NWT "addition" in Colossians [4 times mind you]. The removal of all these below, would make for a more harsh reading, but would be unchanged in context.

Here are all the known instances, that I am aware [I apologize if I missed any], of in the KJB with the added italicized words "other" in them [I looked these up myself]:

OT:

Genesis 20:16, 25:23, 31:50, 41:3, 47:21; Exodus 4:7, 26:3, 28:10,25,27[x2], 30:32, 36:10, 37:8, 39:20[x2]; Leviticus 11:23, 13:26, 20:24,26, 25:53; Numbers 10:21, 36:3; Deuteronomy 13:7; Joshua 11:19, 21:27, 22:7; Judges 7:7, 9:44, 13:10, 16:17; 1 Samuel 30:20; 2 Samuel 1:24, 17:9, 24:22; 1 Kings 7:6; 2 Kings 12:7; 1 Chronicles 9:32; 2 Chronicles 13:9, 20:1, 25:12, 29:34, 30:23, 32:17,22, 34:12, 35:13; Nehemiah 11:1; Esther 2:12; Job 8:12, 24:24; Psalms 73:5[x2], 85:10; Isaiah 26:13; Jeremiah 12:12, 25:33, 32:20; Ezekiel 16:34, 41:21, 48:8; Daniel 3:21; Hosea 9:1, 13:10

NT:

Acts 5:29; 1 Corinthians 11:21

What do you immediately notice, between the Hebrew and Koine Greek translation of the scripture into the English, in regards the addition of italicized words "other"? The NT basically doesn't need a single addition in the KJB, I was actually surprised at this, as it was unexpected. Therefore, even the balance of percentage is against what the NWT did. Yet, there's more:

Therefore, even with such overwhelming evidence, should the WTS just be purposefully and intentfully adding the word "other" 4 more times [without italics* [1]] into Colossians 1, to suit what they think/believe [apriori] it says?

*Colossians 1:16-17 NWT - 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,o whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through himp and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,q and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

Where are the italics, when they know for a fact that the Koine Greek word for "other" [allos or loipos, etc], is not in a single ms, etc?

The King James translators were honest in what they did.

Do you see the same integrity for the WTS producers? I personally do not. I am not asking you to explain for them. I am just asking you to stand back and look at it. Ask yourself, how many persons among the WTS, Jehovah's Witnesses, know that there is not a single Koine Greek authority [or any langauge MS, authority] for those 4 additions? You ought to be asking the WTS, why aren't they in Italics? Do you [the WTS] need to be hiding such things, if we have the truth? Aren't there better ways to explain a text, than to simply insert 4 unauthorized words without italics to prove what we believe? Do you tell people even in the footnote that they are additions to the text and not 'original'? I see no footnotes to this effect, though the NWT [silver sword] is replete with footnotes. There WTS, why no footnotes here instructing the reader? If I were WTS/JW, I would be asking those questions.

THE Art Vandelay said:

...randomly quoting scriptures ...

Click to expand...

Let's look at the context of a single scripture then:

Genesis 19:24 KJB -Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

[Jesus, the LORD [JEHOVAH] who came down with the two covering cherubs, the two angels that are beside the LORD, is standing upon the earth [Genesis 18-19, especially 18:25 “Judge of all the Earth”] and calling down fire from His Father above, the Holy Spirit being included by the Fire also]

Crosstian said:

Let's look at the context of a single scripture then:

Genesis 19:24 KJB -Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

[Jesus, the LORD [JEHOVAH] who came down with the two covering cherubs, the two angels that are beside the LORD, is standing upon the earth [Genesis 18-19, especially 18:25 “Judge of all the Earth”] and calling down fire from His Father above, the Holy Spirit being included by the Fire also]

Click to expand...

Easy enough to pick apart, since Jesus is NOT "the LORD [JEHOVAH]", nor have you even come close to having any kind of argument that he is. Your nonsense is clearly based on errant, pre-determined ideas.

Crosstian said:

All of the words in Colossians 1:15-18, etc are perfect in the King James as they are.

You, instead, have to attack "translation".

Click to expand...

No, they aren't even close to perfect in King James. And "translation" has a great deal to do with accuracy. For example, some lunatic Trinitarian felt the need, some 300 years after the Bible was completed to change verbiage in order to bolster support for their personal beliefs. 1 John 5:7,8 is the perfect example of that, as it's an example that is well-documented and known to various Bible scholars the world over.

The non-belonging verbiage? "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.

All you keep doing is digging a bigger hole for yourself with your cherry-picking, dodging, and pretzel-twisting of scripture.

Crosstian said:

Distraction. Non-sequitur. It's also simply untrue.

Click to expand...

Nope. It's completely true, and you have nothing to dispute that fact.

Crosstian said:

Where is the evidence of your accusation that I asked for, several times now? Still waiting.

Distraction. Non-sequitur. It's also simply untrue.

Feel free to read (just scroll down to section):

The preserved word of God (Psalms 12:6-7) in the English language – The King James Bible (KJB) – AV1611 – Vindicated Files (PDF & Powerpoint):

Why would you not give evidence of your accusation, and then try to derail the subject to another completely unrelated subject, and again without evidence, only accusation?

I already see what you are attempting to do, but it won't work. I have hundreds of pages on this.

In fact, in matters of "antiquity'" of the KJB language, I have several books on this, one of which very clearly proves its modernity, and demonstrates from modern newspapers, headlines, movies and common lingo, that the KJB is very much up to date, not only in the UK but in the States and English speaking countries, for instance:

Archaic words? You supposedly mean like these?

abode kernels ancients laden aright lance asunder lusty away with mantle beckon mattock begotten naught bier nurtured bewitched odious bowels osprey calved pangs celestial phylacteries coney plowshare confections rend convince respite cormorant rushes decked soothsayer deride spoil distill suckling dung temperate effect tetrarch estate trafficked forevermore unto fowl usury girdle vaunt hallowed vestments haunt vex heresies wanton infamy yokefellow inasmuch insatiable jeopardy

abase deride heresies pipes temperate abated didst hinds plowshare tenons abode distill importune presbytery teraphim adjure doest impotent principalities tetrarch alms dost inasmuch putrefaction thee ancient doth issue raiment thereon apparel dung jeopardy rampart thine aright effect know ravening thou art eminent laden remission thy asunder engines laud rend timbrel away with estate layer reprobate trafficked backbiting evermore lightness requite travail beget familiar litters riot unto beseech feigned lordly rushes usury bewail fetch lunatic seemly vagabond bewitched firstlings lusty seest valor bondwomen fleshhook mail seethe vaunt bowels footmen maintenance shalt venture breeches forbearance mammon sherd verily brimstone fowl mantle shod vermillion calves fuller maranatha shouldst vex canst gaiety mattock shouldest virtue cleave garners milch smith wanton comely gavest mill solace warp constrains girdle nether soothsayer wayfarers cormorant graven nurtured sore whence couches gross odious speakest wherewith covert guile offscouring stay woof crib handmaid pangs strait wrought dainty harrow paramours suckling yea dearth hast perdition swaddling yonder deck haunt phylacteries tares

abase daubed henceforth principality vestments abode dayspring heresies prognostication vex alms debased immutable psaltery virtue amiss decks impudent quarter visage anise deride inasmuch rampart wanton apparel dispensation issue rid warp aright disquiet jeopardy rifled wayfaring austere distill jot riotous whence away with dung know rushes whereupon backbiters effect laden satiate whet beckoned epistle laud shamefaced winebibber beggarly eventide laver shod woof begot evermore litters smith wrought bemoan familiar lordly soothsayer yea beseech fan lusty spoil yonder bewail feigned mail straits bewitched fetch mammon suckling bittern flanks mantle tares bondwomen flay mattock temperate brimstone footmen mill tenons calves forbearance mite terrestrial carnal foursquare nativity tetrarch celestial fowl offend therein circumspect fuller offscouring timbrel cloven gad omnipotent tittle comeliness godhead or ever unto concourses graven pangs usury confederacy greyhound paramours vagabond convince gross phylacteries valor covert hallowed pipes vehement crib haunts plowshare verity dainties hemlock potentate vermillion

abase disquieted henceforth ravening abate dissembles hoarfrost remission abode distill impudent rend adjuration dromedaries inasmuch riotous alms dung isles rushes apparel effect know sacrilege assuaged enjoined laden satiate asunder ensign lance seethe augment ensues laud sherd away with estate laver sloth backbiting eventide litters smith beget evermore lusty solace beggarly execration mail soothsayer bemoan familiar maintenance stay beseech firmament mantle straits bewail firstling mattock stripling bewitched flagon milch suppliants bier flay mill surfeit bowels footmen naught swaddling calving forbear noontide temperate cleft foursquare obeisance teraphim clemency fowl oblation thereupon comely fuller odious thrice coneys gad or ever timbrel constrains garner pangs trafficked cormorant goodly paramours unshod covert gross perdition crib guile phylacteries dainty hallowed pipes debased haltingly plowshare decked harrow pound delectable haunt rampart
None of those are being cited from the King James BIble [though they exist therein].

Row 1 is the NIV 1973.

Row 2 is the NASB [from revised ASV 1901].

Row 3 is the NKJV 1982.

Row 4 is the NRSV 1999 ["milch"].

What was that argument from "archaic" again? Tell me please ...

Click to expand...

1 John 5:7-8 in the KJV, also known as the Comma Johanneum, is an addition not found in the oldest manuscripts...yet it’s still being published in the KJV as genuine Scripture.

There are many other passages in the King James promoting errors in Scripture.

You didn’t know that?

THE Art Vandelay said:

Easy enough to pick apart, since Jesus is NOT "the LORD [JEHOVAH]", nor have you even come close to having any kind of argument that he is. Your nonsense is clearly based on errant, pre-determined ideas.

Click to expand...

What do you mean, "easy enough to pick apart" and "pre-determined ideas"? All I did was quote the scripture and highlight it, showing that there are two persons being referred to there as "LORD" (JEHOVAH).


One "LORD" (JEHOVAH; person of the Son, one of the three men, the other two being the angels, which stand upon His right and left, Gabriel and 'herald') is quite literally standing on the earth, as per context:


Why only "two" of the "three", it is because the "LORD" was the third, who was still standing with Abraham, after the "two" angels went ahead, and the "LORD" (Person/Being of the Son) followed after when done speaking with Abraham, for God came down to personally see to the matter, as He had in so many other places in scripture.


Jesus spoke of the events of Sodom and Gomorrah, as having been there, personally:

Jesus had even shown Abraham His coming:


What do you make of these texts and others which speak of Jesus JEHOVAH [H3444 H3068]?

Hockeycowboy said:

1 John 5:7-8 in the KJV, also known as the Comma Johanneum, is an addition not found in the oldest manuscripts...yet it’s still being published in the KJV as genuine Scripture.

There are many other passages in the King James promoting errors in Scripture.

You didn’t know that?

Click to expand...

Non-sequitur. The text, 1 John 5:7-8 is in the texts (demonstrate that in just a minute), and secondly doesn't say what WTS/JW teach against.

Now, to 1 John 5:7-8.

The Biblical evidence:

God has stated in His word, that He would preserve His words from generation to generation:


The Logical evidence:

Divine inspiration without Divine preservation would be a Divine waste of time. This particular phrase whether in text or margin, quotations for varied persons in history, thus has been around a long time, and even with the Textus Receptus [TR], and moreso, in the King James Bible [the preserved word of God in English] for over 400 years. It is obviously being preserved by that which is greater than the human capability or mind.

The phrase is also unique to John, in that the text does not refer to the specific terms of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but rather to the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost. The phrase "the word", in reference to the person of the Son, is unique to John's mind, among the gospel and epistle writers.

Just standing back and looking at it objectively, the phrase that is in dispute by critics [see wikipedia, etc], is actually quite large to have been purposefully inserted at some point in early history after the completion of the original text, but it would be far easier to drop it in transmission, transcribing.

Some may argue that the phrase is not in the majority of Koine Greek witnesses, and is therefore not to be retained. This is a logical fallacy. While it is true that it is not in the majority of Greek 'witnesses' [most of which are late mss, etc], that does not preclude its having been originally therein, nor of it's validity as standing in the texts of the other languages of the world, such as Latin, etc.

God never stated that He had to preserve His living word in any singular language, even dead [Koine Greek, Latin, etc] languages at that.

God never stated that He would preserve His word in just the 'early' works and fragments, or in just the 'late' works and fragments which are found in the dusty forgotten places of the world. He may use any combination thereof He chooses.

God never stated that He would preserve His word in the majority of texts. God is able to save by many, few or even just one. For instance, see the battles of Gideon and the 300 [Judges 6 KJB], or Jonathan and his armour bearer:


God is able to re-inspire a text that has been destroyed through various means [in fact, this is how DNA itself, which is a written language, works, when mutations, errors occur within itself. It has a self correcting mechanism.], for instance see the examples of Moses and Jeremiah:


Notice Matthew 1:11 KJB:


Notice who is suddenly 'missing'?

Jehoiakim... (for it was Jehoiakim that begat Jechonias, and Josias the father of Jehoiakim (2 Kings 23:34; Jeremiah 1:3, 22:18, 25:1, 26:1, 27:1, 35:1, 36:1,9, 45:1, 46:2) and was Jechonias' grandfather (1 Chronicles 3:16; Jeremiah 22:24, 24:1, 27:20, 28:4, 37:1; "Coniah" = "Jeconiah/s")), but why?

It was for what he did to the word of God; which was cutting it up into pieces and having it burned.

On another note, some 'skeptics' , or even so-called Bible scholars [like the 'lawyers, scribes, etc of Jesus' day], try to point out in scripture, like this location, and say, “See, your Bible cannot be trusted, as it has gaps in the Genealogies, and therefore who knows how many persons are missing, etc, etc.” Yet, the only reason we know that there are so-called “gaps” in certain places like Matthew or elsewhere in the first place, is because those so-called “gaps” are filled in elsewhere, which means, there are no actual gaps in scripture [KJB].

Also, this particular example is good, because of what else it shows. Namely, that even though Jeremiah wrote [through Baruch; Jeremiah 36:1-4 KJB] the original note/letter and sent it to the King, from God, the King cut up and burned the original copy. Therefore, that “original manuscript” is forever lost [except God bring it back through miracle]. This goes to show that those who claim to only believe the “original manuscripts” do not know what they are talking about.

The “original manuscripts” are long gone, destroyed, burned, faded, erased, or re-used [called a 'palimpsest', scrape over a lambskin, etc and rewrite on top], buried at sea and eaten, and so on.

God does not care so much about the “originals” as He does about simply “preserving” His word [see Psalms 12:6-7 KJB], generally through memory, copying, etc.

Well, since the King cut up and burned [Jeremiah 36:23 KJB] the “original” manuscript copy of the letter by Jeremiah/Baurch, how then do we have a copy of it in scripture to read [Jeremiah 36 KJB]? Did you take notice all of the times that “scribes” are near at hand, making copies of what is said, or written? What was more important, the “original” or preserving what was said by God?

Obviously preserving the words, not the “original” manuscript.

Yet, this is not all, for we even see that God had Jeremiah/Baruch, write an “original” manuscript number 2, to repeat what was in the first “original” with even more words, see Jeremiah 36:28,32 KJB. Therefore, we see, that if a piece of God's word be maliciously destroyed, God, through one means or another, preserves it. In this instance, Jeremiah and Baruch were to write such again, and add more to it.

Thus we now have “original” manuscript number 2.

Yet this “original” manuscript is taken and tied to a stone and cast into the Euphrates river [Jeremiah 51:63 KJB], thus eliminating “original” manuscript number 2, by decree of God, through an angel.

How then do we have those words in Jeremiah since the “original” manuscript 2 was purposefully destroyed at God's own command? Well, someone obviously made a copy of those words, either Jeremiah/Baruch, or a “scribe” in either the Temple or King's court, etc and thus we then have “original” manuscript number 3.

Yet, to be sure, “original” manuscript number 3 is more than likely, as the other two, long since been disintegrated. It is not the “originals” that are important, but rather it is the preservation [by God] of those words which were given by God [Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB].

Consider also the original Tables of Stone written upon by the finger of God, were broken by Moses [Exodus 32:19; Deuteronomy 9:17 KJB].

Was the medium of the material important as much as the words, or were the words to be preserved instead on a new [though similar] medium [Exodus 34:1; Deuteronomy 10:2 KJB]?

God's words are still available today in the preserved word of God, in English, the King James Bible, and may be found in Exodus 20:1-17 KJB. No old fragment of an "original" is needed. God's word is "quick" ['living'; Hebrews 4:12 KJB], not dead.

Now, let's look at the MSS evidence.