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Looking for a debate with creationists (I am an atheist)

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Is that now solid? I thought it was just one school of thought.

It's definite that a closed universe has net zero energy. An open universe may be able to avoid it, but not likely.

One aspect is that in curved spacetime, it is difficult to even define what you mean by 'total energy'. The point is that energy is one component of the energy-momentum 4-vector and comparing such vectors at different locations isn't well defined in curved situations.

Think of it like this. Take a tangent vector to a sphere at the equator, pointed in the direction of the equator. Translate it up to the north pole via parallel transport, then back down to the equator along a different longitude line (for specificity, along one 90 degrees from the first). Then translate back along the equator to the original point. The vector that moved via parallel transport will NOT be the same as the original it will have rotated.

Such rotation is inevitable in curved manifolds. In the case of the energy-momentum vector, it means that the energy component, when translated to another point in space will depend on which route you use to do the translation. In other words, to add up the energies from different locations, the answer may well depend on how you compare different points.

So even defining 'total energy' is problematic, to say the least. The only way out is to include an energy component to the curvature itself. And *that* ultimately leads to zero total energy.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Yet here we are, fourteen pages in 5 days.
I don't much bother with creationism.

So tell me.

What's been accomplished in these 14 pages that hasn't already been done 14 times on RF since I joined 5 years ago?
Anything?
Tom
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Do you believe that humans and african apes share a common ancestor together, which existed prior to humans or african apes? Do you believe that all animal life that exists on the planet evolved from simpler life forms which originally lived in the ocean? Do you believe that all animals are related to each other, and they all share a common ancestor at some point in history? Do you accept the following diagram of how evolution looks, which shows how we are all related to each other, that primates which includes us, shared a common ancestor?

View attachment 34121

If you answer no, that you disagree that apes and humans share a common ancestor, then you are not accepting the science for non-scientific reasons. You are distorting what the science shows in order to pay lip service that you are not "rejecting evolution", while you are in fact denying and rejecting it.

BTW, the theory of evolution absolutely does not suggest that cats give birth to dogs, or that humans came from monkeys. That is not possible. That is not what the evidence shows. But it does show that at some point, way back, those branches of evolution were connected. Cats and dogs, humans and monkeys, at some point all shared a common ancestor, some small rodent creature that survived the dinosaur extinction.

Do you accept any of this? If not, then can you please answer my questions why you seem to feel a need to deny the science in order to believe in God, while other Christians do not? I fully accept the above, and I believe in God. Do you?

That is a claim you've made, "you are not accepting the science for non-scientific reasons":

1) Scientists are debating all the things you've listed above

2) This is a religious forum, so I'm unsure why'd you'd bother me even if I did make a religious assertion
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
And God poofing things into existence is a superior theory? It is to laugh!

Difference between hypotheses about abiongensis and God poofing is that one is potenially falsifiable and the other isn't. God's existence is not falsifiable since, by definition, he is not material.

I didn't say "superior" theory. I said--accurately--that scientific research into abiogenesis is near-empty.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I don't think I ever said that...
I can understand how you would think that after reading my posts though ;-)



Err... logically, the opposite seems true. If something can't / wasn't created, then it wouldn't have a finite past.
But once again, you make a crucial mistake, like so many creationists do who think they can be clever with the laws of physics.

Your forget that what we refer to as physics, are the way things work IN THIS UNIVERSE.
Laws of conservation, thermodynamics, etc.... all these things are physics as they apply IN the universe.

When you wish to talk about whatever environment we'ld find ourselves in when we REMOVE the universe to discuss how universes originate, physics as we know it goes out the window as well. If you remove the universe, you also remove the physics of the universe.

So, when one says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, more specifically that means that it cannot be created or destroyed within the context of the universe.
We don't know if this applies "outside" of the universe. In fact we don't even know if the concept even makes sense outside of the universe.


And now for a nice kicker..............
The total sum of energy of the universe, could be zero. This is called the zero-energy universe hypothesis. In that model, the total positive energy of matter is canceled out by the negative energy of gravity.
In such a model, no energy would ever have to be created, because it technically wouldn't even exist in a way. It's like having the number zero and then splitting that into +1 and -1. Technically, you still have zero.



Again: always is a period of time. All of time, to be exact.
Time, is an integral property / dimension of the universe, aka the space-time continuum.
The universe began at T = 0
Time began when the universe began.

Therefor, for all of time (aka 'always'), the universe existed.

It really is that simple.

Got it! Total sum = zero. Neither of us exist.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Time didn't begin at my birth, so that's a nonsensical analogy.

Here's a better analogy: what is north of the north pole?
That is the equivalent of asking "what was before the universe".
There is no "before" time itself.
Just like there is no "north" of the north.

You ARE aware that time is an integral part of the universe, right? That it is called the space-time continuum for a reason, right?

Once more: go back in time. As far as you like. No matter at which time you stop, you'll find yourself in the universe. You can go back to the very very very very first moment of the universe, at T = planck time. And there will be a universe there. And you will have reached the end of the line of the period of "always".

So yes: the universe has existed for all of time. Always.



At this point with our current knowledge, the word "before" is invalid in that context.

Restated from your "work" above: The Universe had no finite beginning. Got it.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is a claim you've made, "you are not accepting the science for non-scientific reasons":
Do you have scientific reasons for denying what all scientists say is true, that all animals on this planet evolved from earlier life forms, or species? If not, then you are denying it for non-scientific reasons. Correct?

1) Scientists are debating all the things you've listed above
No they are not. No scientist believes that evolution does not mean species evolve into other species, except of course for pseudoscientists like religious creationists, who are not really doing science at all, but simply trying to sound "sciency" in order to not have to accept the actual science.

What may be debated is the mechanisms of how exactly that has happened, not whether it has happened. That is an established fact that this has indeed happened. Debates are not about the fact it happened, but how it happens, not if it happened. That has already been established as a fact.

2) This is a religious forum, so I'm unsure why'd you'd bother me even if I did make a religious assertion
That's perfectly fine you are choosing to deny science because of how you choose to read the book of Genesis. What is not fine, is you not admitting that.

At least you'd be truthful in saying, "I reject all the branches of the sciences which all claim without exception the evolution of animals life forms from one species into another over time, because of how I read the book of Genesis. They are all wrong, regardless of their expertise, because I believe the creation story in Genesis should be read as a historically and scientifically accurate account of creation". That is an honest answer, as opposed to saying you accept evolution in order to sound like you're not a science-denier.

Now then, now that we have established trutfully you reject science because your faith doesn't allow for you to change how you think about the book of Genesis, can you answer my question now? Which is, why is it some Christians don't feel a need to deny science, while still believing in God, and you feel a need to deny science in order to still believe in God?

Can you explain the difference between their faith, and yours? How can they believe in God, yet accept the science, and you cannot? How is it other Christians still believe in God, and accept what science tells us about the evolution of all species on this planet from a single life form, into many? And finally, what is more important? Faith, or holding fast to our ideas about God and not allowing them to change or be changed for us?
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Just to remind people of rule 3:

3. Trolling and Bullying
Where Rule 1 covers personal attacks, Rule 3 governs other behaviors and content that can generally be described as being a jerk. Unacceptable behaviors and content include:

1) Content (whether words or images) that most people would find needlessly offensive, especially when such content is posted just to get a rise out of somebody and/or is not part of a reasoned argument.

2) Defamation, slander, or misrepresentation of a member's beliefs/arguments, or that of a particular group, culture, or religion. This includes altering the words of another member to change their meaning when using the quote feature.

3) Antagonism, bullying, or harassment - including but not limited to personal attacks, slander, and misrepresentation - of a member across multiple content areas of the forums. Repeatedly targeting or harassing members of particular groups will also be considered bullying.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I don't much bother with creationism.

So tell me.

What's been accomplished in these 14 pages that hasn't already been done 14 times on RF since I joined 5 years ago?
Anything?
Tom

You must be somewhat interested since you're still here. If it's accomplishing nothing for you, why are you here?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I didn't say "superior" theory. I said--accurately--that scientific research into abiogenesis is near-empty.
That's a completely false statement. Willful ignorance is not an excuse.

If you Google "abiogenesis scientific papers" you'll come up with over 12,000 results. That's not "near-empty".
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bible is compatible with modern science.

Science refutes much of Genesis and Exodus. The Christian Bible is not only not compatible with science, it isn't even compatible with itself.

So you are unaware of the "glaring, fundamental problems" with say, abiogenesis as an unproven, un-duplicated, untested theory?

Abiogenesis is not a theory. It is a hypothesis. And it has mountains of evidence in its support, with likely much more to come. You'd know that if you had any interest in learning science.

You have no chance of convincing anybody educated in the sciences if you continually get the science wrong.

I'm not saying "the universe can't be eternal," the Law of Conservation says it.

Nope. Like I said, when you make mistakes of this magnitude, you disqualify your criticisms of science.

God isn't mere matter or energy but a higher form that sculpted those material things.

See there? You love unproven, un-duplicated, untested ideas such as that a god or gods exist. And you are happy to make unevidenced claims as if they were facts.

Hundreds of thousands of genuine scientists are unwilling to admit that nearly a century of abiogenesis experiments are utter failures

Except that we keep making forward progress thanks to scientists dedicating entire careers and funding sources underwriting billions of dollars in research. They seem to disagree with your religious proclamation. And it's a good thing, too.

I said--accurately--that scientific research into abiogenesis is near-empty.

No, you were wrong - again.

Got it! Total sum = zero. Neither of us exist.

It's really a simple concept. If your net worth is zero, and you take out a loan - say $100,000 - and buy a house with it, you now have $100,000 in equity in the house and a $100,000 debt. Your net worth remains zero, but you now have a deed and a mortgage. By your reckoning, neither of those things exist.

Abiogenesis is a unproven theory

That doesn't rule out the hypothesis. To think otherwise is to commit a logical fallacy ("If you haven't proven it, it's untrue")

Besides, unproven isn't a deal breaker for you. You bought into creationism with no evidence. You believe it because you want it to be true. Even if there were no evidence for abiogenesis, it would be on as firm a footing as creationism, and for those willing to believe by faith as you do, it could be believed by faith.

Your double standard for science and dogma - one requires proof, the other doesn't - is also a logical fallacy (special pleading - "Your beliefs require proof to be believed, but mine don't")
 
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