• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Russian Revolution: 102nd Anniversary

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Dam. I nearly slipped up and didn't post anything! :D

Well, ladies and gentlemen, November 7th 2019 marks the 102nd Anniversary of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. We've come a very long way since then; we've had the great depression, the rise of fascism, the second world war, the cold war and the collapse of communism.

Do you believe that the Communist Revolution in Russia was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for the world? Would we have been better off if it had never happened and what would you have expected to be different? Has the world been better off since the Berlin Wall came down and the USSR dissolved? And what lessons are there from the experience of communism in the 20th century that apply to the present day?

All your thoughts and comments welcome! Now let's cue the music and hear it for the motherland as we all go the gulag together! ;)

 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, that explains the anti-socialism protest
in Russia that I heard about the other day.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Since I'm an American because my parents fled pogroms and revolution, I'm biased to feeling that I personally am much better off today because of their migration into what was a welcoming USA at the time compared to today's reverse.

As to the place of the USSR in history, it depends on what yardstick we choose. If WWII is the yardstick, then having the Soviet Union be part of defeating Germany was a VERY positive development.

If having the world divided into two camps where the decision of one man prevented a catastrophic war, then it depends on how you see what followed. To me, it's a positive outcome.

If you measure by the suffering of the people in the USSR under Stalin etc, it's very negative.

And rather than the USSR anthem, I most resonate to

 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
An authoritarian government, be it "right" or "left", that murders en mass is not a good thing at all.

Agreed.
There is some sort of 'lesser of two evil' argument to be made in relation to Nazism.

I could never say the regime was anything other than bad. I have more trouble judging what would have happened in its absence.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Dam. I nearly slipped up and didn't post anything! :D

Well, ladies and gentlemen, November 7th 2019 marks the 102nd Anniversary of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. We've come a very long way since then; we've had the great depression, the rise of fascism, the second world war, the cold war and the collapse of communism.

Do you believe that the Communist Revolution in Russia was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for the world? Would we have been better off if it had never happened and what would you have expected to be different? Has the world been better off since the Berlin Wall came down and the USSR dissolved? And what lessons are there from the experience of communism in the 20th century that apply to the present day?

All your thoughts and comments welcome! Now let's cue the music and hear it for the motherland as we all go the gulag together! ;)

was not a great idea...
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Since I'm an American because my parents fled pogroms and revolution, I'm biased to feeling that I personally am much better off today because of their migration into what was a welcoming USA at the time compared to today's reverse.

As to the place of the USSR in history, it depends on what yardstick we choose. If WWII is the yardstick, then having the Soviet Union be part of defeating Germany was a VERY positive development.

If having the world divided into two camps where the decision of one man prevented a catastrophic war, then it depends on how you see what followed. To me, it's a positive outcome.

If you measure by the suffering of the people in the USSR under Stalin etc, it's very negative.

And rather than the USSR anthem, I most resonate to

would be there Hitler without Stalin?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Dam. I nearly slipped up and didn't post anything! :D

Well, ladies and gentlemen, November 7th 2019 marks the 102nd Anniversary of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. We've come a very long way since then; we've had the great depression, the rise of fascism, the second world war, the cold war and the collapse of communism.

Sounds like the last century has been one heck of a rollercoaster ride. A lot of people didn't even think we'd survive. (And even now, who can say?)

Do you believe that the Communist Revolution in Russia was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for the world?

I think the March Revolution, in which the Tsar was overthrown, was a good thing. The Provisional Government's primary mistake was in trying to please both sides, as well as the Western Allies who were pressuring Russia to remain in the war. After the Bolshevik Revolution in November, the whole country was plunged into civil war, so that was certainly bad.

In some ways, the Revolution was good in that it might have been a wake-up call to other countries to treat their working class better. Western liberals favored social and economic reforms in order to improve the standard of living, partly to avoid the kinds of extreme disparities and misery which existed in Tsarist Russia.

However in the West, many people were gripped by profound fears of communism and the Soviet Union. A lot of governments opposed the Soviet Union from the get go, so they were pretty much isolated from the rest of the world, diplomatically, politically, and economically.

So, there was enmity right from the start, although in those early years, the Soviet Union was hardly in any position to threaten the West.

But the US was afraid of communist infiltrators, anarchists, wobblies, so Wilson's Attorney General, A. Mitchell Palmer, launched a series of raids against what he saw as enemies of the United States. It would be part of a general wariness and ongoing campaign against communism that gripped our national consciousness for generations.

So from a US point of view, that appears to be the more significant downside of the Communist Revolution, since whole generations were fed heavy doses of propaganda about the "godless communists" and so forth, it seemed to affect our national psyche in numerous ways.

Our fear of Communism in the US did more damage to our country than the Communists ever could have done on their own.

Would we have been better off if it had never happened and what would you have expected to be different?

I've often wondered what would have happened if the Provisional Government under Kerensky had survived. Russia was doing badly in the war, but if they had stayed in and held on for just another year, they would have been on the winning side and would have had an equal seat along with the other Allied Powers at Versailles. No doubt they would have been able to retain the pre-war boundaries of the Russian Empire, and they might have been able to gain even more territory (such as in Turkey - the Bosporus and Dardanelles, possibly).

Kerensky's government was more moderate, although they did have some socialist underpinnings, but it would have been liberal and democratic. They certainly would have had greater cooperation with the West, which would have put them in a much better position to industrialize and modernize. They wouldn't have been isolated enemies of the West, but friends and allies.

But it's doubtful that it would be a smooth sailing all the way, since there were a number of different factions and internal dissension within Russia, not to mention the non-Russian provinces which had active independence movements. Also, presuming they'd be a relatively capitalist country tied in with Western economies, Russia would probably be hit hard by the Great Depression.

My guess is that, if the Communists never came to power, then it's unlikely that Hitler would have come to power. But it's still possible that whoever might lead the German government might still have disputes with Russia - and vice versa. Russia also had ongoing issues on their eastern frontier as well, so that likely would have remained the same no matter which government was in power.

Has the world been better off since the Berlin Wall came down and the USSR dissolved? And what lessons are there from the experience of communism in the 20th century that apply to the present day?

Well, it was good that the Berlin Wall came down. That was a pretty memorable event. I visited the USSR when I was in my early 20s, and even though it was a few years before the collapse, it didn't really appear that way. The country seemed relatively functional to me, even if not luxurious by Western standards. Gorbachev was a relative moderate compared to his predecessors, but I would consider him to be one of history's more tragic characters, similar to Kerensky.

At that time, the original bases and pretexts for the Cold War had pretty much grown irrelevant, especially as it applied to Europe. Neither side really wanted to go to war with each other anyway. The US still had lingering worries that the Soviets would launch an all-out invasion of Western Europe, which would trigger a US nuclear response, and then we'd all go up in smoke.

When I was in Russia, I saw a lot of memorials and monuments to WW2, from Leningrad to Stalingrad. The size and scope of the untold suffering and misery they endured was beyond my comprehension. But the point was driven home to me that when the Russians say "we don't want war," they're telling the truth.

The interesting thing about the Berlin Wall coming down and the general freeing of Eastern Europe was that that didn't necessarily spell the end of the Soviet Union. The USSR probably still might have remained intact, if not for the abortive coup that took place by the hardline Communists who were against Gorbachev and his reforms. That was a fiasco, and that's what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It was all perfectly legal. The Soviet Constitution guaranteed the right of any of the Soviet Republics to secede from the USSR and declare independence if they wished. So, that's what they all did.

Perhaps they could have moved a bit more slowly. There were still some loose ends and other things to be ironed out, and many of today's problems between Russia and Ukraine seem to be the result of some of those loose ends.

I will say it was somewhat disappointing that the US didn't use the opportunity to build up friendlier relations with Russia.

Also, much of our militarism and the national security state still remained policy, even though the whole justification for all that was the existence of the Soviet Union and the so-called "Red Menace." Now that the Soviet Union was no more and the Cold War was over, what did we still need all that for? To invade Iraq?





All your thoughts and comments welcome! Now let's cue the music and hear it for the motherland as we all go the gulag together! ;)

 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you believe that the Communist Revolution in Russia was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for the world? Would we have been better off if it had never happened and what would you have expected to be different? Has the world been better off since the Berlin Wall came down and the USSR dissolved? And what lessons are there from the experience of communism in the 20th century that apply to the present day?
I don't know the details of the Communist Revolution there. To me it seems like sometimes revolution is going to happen, and its future leaders see the revolution coming and claim it as their own. If you see it coming and get out in front then you can claim its yours even if its not, like surfing a wave. You cannot create the wave yourself. I think the communists named the revolution, tried to define it; but it was a revolt wasn't it? It was people wanting something to happen, unhappy about the way things were. I don't think that the communists caused there to be a revolution. Maybe I'm wrong? If there had been no communists defining it what would it have been? It would have been something else, but there still would have been a revolution.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Do you believe that the Communist Revolution in Russia was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for the world? Would we have been better off if it had never happened and what would you have expected to be different?

There are too many variables attached to Russia to create any objective answer due to WW2 and the build up to the war. The aftermath with a Communist superpower that never existed. This could result in a KMT victory in China instead of the CCP for example.

The only war I could think would have occurred would be between Japan against China, the USA and European Colonial powers of France and the UK with the Commonwealth. This one seems set as neither Tsarist and Communist Russia wee much of a threat to Japan. Japan's change in government didn't rely upon Communism nor Russia as a threat as seen in Germany and Europe. Japan was set on become an industrial power beyond the capability of it's own territory and technology at the time. Hence invading Asia for resources.

Has the world been better off since the Berlin Wall came down and the USSR dissolved?

Yes. Keeping in mind how things average out when you look at it globally. It has not been better for every individual.

And what lessons are there from the experience of communism in the 20th century that apply to the present day?

How not to do Communism is the best answer I can think of.

Do not get me wrong. Alternative history can be fun at times depending on context. I play a lot of games based on general points in history or alternative history. However it is a completely in the realm of fiction and how much effort one wants to put into create a "story"
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Dam. I nearly slipped up and didn't post anything! :D

Well, ladies and gentlemen, November 7th 2019 marks the 102nd Anniversary of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. We've come a very long way since then; we've had the great depression, the rise of fascism, the second world war, the cold war and the collapse of communism.

Do you believe that the Communist Revolution in Russia was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for the world? Would we have been better off if it had never happened and what would you have expected to be different? Has the world been better off since the Berlin Wall came down and the USSR dissolved? And what lessons are there from the experience of communism in the 20th century that apply to the present day?

All your thoughts and comments welcome! Now let's cue the music and hear it for the motherland as we all go the gulag together! ;)

i think people of Russia were deceived and cheated. There were a few idealists and hard core professionals who did the revolution. Idealists were wiped out eventually as well as some professionals who considered to be rivals. There was enthusiasm in the beginning which slowly disapeared. And by 50-60s the USSR was demoralised.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Dam. I nearly slipped up and didn't post anything! :D

Well, ladies and gentlemen, November 7th 2019 marks the 102nd Anniversary of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. We've come a very long way since then; we've had the great depression, the rise of fascism, the second world war, the cold war and the collapse of communism.

Do you believe that the Communist Revolution in Russia was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for the world? Would we have been better off if it had never happened and what would you have expected to be different? Has the world been better off since the Berlin Wall came down and the USSR dissolved? And what lessons are there from the experience of communism in the 20th century that apply to the present day?

All your thoughts and comments welcome! Now let's cue the music and hear it for the motherland as we all go the gulag together! ;)

 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't know the details of the Communist Revolution there. To me it seems like sometimes revolution is going to happen, and its future leaders see the revolution coming and claim it as their own. If you see it coming and get out in front then you can claim its yours even if its not, like surfing a wave. You cannot create the wave yourself. I think the communists named the revolution, tried to define it; but it was a revolt wasn't it? It was people wanting something to happen, unhappy about the way things were. I don't think that the communists caused there to be a revolution. Maybe I'm wrong? If there had been no communists defining it what would it have been? It would have been something else, but there still would have been a revolution.

Those are all good questions and historians are still debating them to this day. :)

The communists tried to present themselves as the culmination of Russian and world history based on Marx's analysis of the development of capitalism. But I think even they would concede that certain objective conditions were needed for a revolution to take place that were outside of their control. There were many unhappy people in Russia before World War One (hence the 1905-7 revolution), but the war poured petrol on those problems and the Bolsheviks/communists are what came out.
 
Top