Thoughts On The Partnership Of God And Satan

1213 · Oct 27, 2019

Skwim said:
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...And because Satan is allowed to exist obviously the god of Abraham is pleased with what he does, seducing humans into sin or falsehood. In other words, god want's humans to sin, which is contrary to what Christians have told me about their god.
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If I allow you to live, does it mean I accept your opinions? No, it just means I am merciful.

I think Satan is not a problem. People are free to make their own choices and if they choose lies over the truth, it is their own mistake. I don’t think God wants people to make mistakes. I believe God wants people to be free and that they make their own choices.

Skwim · Oct 27, 2019

1213 said:
If I allow you to live, does it mean I accept your opinions? No, it just means I am merciful.

I think Satan is not a problem. People are free to make their own choices and if they choose lies over the truth, it is their own mistake. I don’t think God wants people to make mistakes. I believe God wants people to be free and that they make their own choices.

As I understand Satan, his purpose is to seduce humans into sin or falsehood. And if people are so seduced it's only because he has compromised their free will. His work will have succeeded. If this never happened Satan would be just a footnote in the Bible. But he isn't. According to Christians Satan is quite successful. And god, being the omniscient being he is, knows this, AND allows Satan to continue in his seductions. Why? Well the only reasonable thing I can think of is that's the way he wants it. If god didn't want Satan seducing humans and compromising their free will he would certainly stop it wouldn't he? Sure he would. And any sins humans committed would be of their own doing, without the help of Satan. Yet here we are, not only making sinful mistakes on our own, but making them with the help of Satan. Conclusion: God wants us to sin. So much so that he's sent his henchman Satan to help accomplish the goal.

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Darkforbid · Oct 27, 2019

Skwim said:
As I understand Satan, his purpose is to seduce humans into sin or falsehood. And if people are so seduced it's only because he has compromised their free will. His work will have succeeded. If this never happened Satan would be just a footnote in the Bible. But he isn't. According to Christians Satan is quite successful. And god, being the omnipotent being he is, also knows this, BUT allows Satan to continue in his seductions. Why? Well the only reasonable thing I can think of is that's the way he wants it. If god didn't want Satan seducing humans and compromising their free will he would certainly stop it wouldn't he? Sure he would. And any sins humans committed would be of their own doing, without the help of Satan. Yet here we are, not only making sinful mistakes on our own, but making them with the help of Satan. Conclusion: God wants us to sin. So much so that he's sent his henchman Satan to help accomplish the goal.

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So you want God to end free will, and turn humanity into a robot like obedient race

Skwim · Oct 27, 2019

Darkforbid said:
So you want God to end free will, and turn humanity into a robot like obedient race

How about simply ending Satan. Wouldn't that be the more reasonable solution?

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1213 · Oct 28, 2019

Skwim said:
As I understand Satan, his purpose is to seduce humans into sin or falsehood. And if people are so seduced it's only because he has compromised their free will.

But to what is that idea of purpose based on? Satan seems to have chosen own purpose for him and that seems to be to tell people what they want to hear. People who “obey” Satan only do what they really want. Satan is just an excuse for their evil deeds and desires.

Skwim said:
As Conclusion: God wants us to sin…

I think that is very wrong conclusion, because Bible says simply and directly:

From now on, sin no more.
John 8:11

Maybe Satan still exists, but it is certainly not because God wants people to be idiots and sin.

Skwim · Oct 28, 2019

1213 said:
But to what is that idea of purpose based on?

That would take peeking into god's head to see why he has allowed Satan to exis, AND to seduce mankind. As crass as it may sound, my best guess is that god regards the human condition as entertainment, and uses Satan to effect that end.

I think that is very wrong conclusion, because Bible says simply and directly:

From now on, sin no more.
John 8:11

Which was directed to a woman and her sin of adultery who had been brought before Jesus.

Maybe Satan still exists, but it is certainly not because God wants people to be idiots and sin.

Then tell us why god allows Satan to exist and seduce mankind into sin and falsehood.

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1213 · Oct 29, 2019

Skwim said:
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Then tell us why god allows Satan to exist and seduce mankind into sin and falsehood.

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I believe Satan exists, because people wanted to know evil. That is why we are on this lesson about good and evil. Luckily this is just a short lesson and those who are righteous can have eternal life with good after this. I think this “life” is like Matrix in the movie Matrix. Soul experiences things through body. Body can be replaced and nothing of this world can destroy soul, which is the important thing, not the body.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

But I think good question is, why Satan is successful, why and how he seduces. It seems to happen by telling what people want to hear. That is why I think the real problem for people is in people’s minds, not Satan.

Skwim · Oct 29, 2019

1213 said:
I believe Satan exists, because people wanted to know evil.

You say this as if people were aware there was evil but never experienced it, like swimming, "Hey, give us a body of water to swim in (experience evil) and who knows, maybe we'll like it." I don't think so.

That is why we are on this lesson about good and evil.

What lesson is that? Surely people did evil things without Satan's help, didn't they?

But I think good question is, why Satan is successful,

Because god wants him to succeed, which is why god lets him continue.

That is why I think the real problem for people is in people’s minds, not Satan.

So now you're saying that Satan doesn't play any part in people sinning? After all, the way Christians portray Satan is as a seducer: One who overpowers people and turns them toward sin, and to lay the problem on the shoulders of people, expecting them to resist Satan is like expecting a legless man to walk.

Sooo. we get right back to the cahoots god and Satan are in.

Satan exists to do god's bidding. If this wasn't so god would get rid of him.

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1213 · Oct 30, 2019

Skwim said:
You say this as if people were aware there was evil but never experienced it, like swimming, "Hey, give us a body of water to swim in (experience evil) and who knows, maybe we'll like it." I don't think so.

Yeah, I think that is what the Bible tells. People heard that the tree could give knowledge of good and evil and they wanted it.

Skwim said:
Because god wants him to succeed, which is why god lets him continue.

Sorry, I don’t think there is any reason to believe God wants Satan to be successful in evil.

Skwim said:
So now you're saying that Satan doesn't play any part in people sinning? After all, the way Christians portray Satan is as a seducer: One who overpowers people and turns them toward sin, and to lay the problem on the shoulders of people, expecting them to resist Satan is like expecting a legless man to walk.

It is possible that he plays some part, but I think he is only an excuse for people and their evil desires and actions. People are guilty to their own evil deeds, no one else. And if Satan does something evil, he is guilty to his own actions.

Skwim said:
Satan exists to do god's bidding. If this wasn't so god would get rid of him.

Don’t worry, Satan has only short time left. But not yet is the time for his end.

Skwim · Oct 30, 2019

1213 said:
Sorry, I don’t think there is any reason to believe God wants Satan to be successful in evil.

Then why not stop him?

It is possible that he plays some part, but I think he is only an excuse for people and their evil desires and actions. People are guilty to their own evil deeds, no one else. And if Satan does something evil, he is guilty to his own actions.

So there's no truth in "The devil made me do it"?

Don’t worry, Satan has only short time left. But not yet is the time for his end.

They've probably been saying this for the last 3,000 years. Meanwhile, millions have suffered while in the lake of fire weeping and the gnashing their teeth.

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amorphous_constellation · Oct 30, 2019

Skwim said:
And because Satan is allowed to exist obviously the god of Abraham is pleased with what he does, seducing humans into sin or falsehood. In other words, god want's humans to sin, which is contrary to what Christians have told me about their god.

It describes right there in the book of Job that satan works for god. He rambles around and tests people for god, though traditionally he's also associated with some kind of failed rebel being as well, the fallen star of Isaiah and the dragon of revelation. Neither of those two might refer to the same being as we read about in Job though, I'm pretty sure tradition just ties all that together. I might add the snake of genesis as also being a satan figure, and perhaps it worked for god as well as a human sin tester. As to the later addition of the 'devil' of popular modern imagery, it was probably a transition from the celtic horned god called cernunnos, among others

Skwim · Oct 30, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
It describes right there in the book of Job that satan works for god. He rambles around and tests people for god, though traditionally he's also associated with some kind of failed rebel being as well, the fallen star of Isaiah and the dragon of revelation. Neither of those two might refer to the same being as we read about in Job though, I'm pretty sure tradition just ties all that together. I might add the snake of genesis as also being a satan figure, and perhaps it worked for god as well as a human sin tester. As to the later addition of the 'devil' of popular modern imagery, it was probably a transition from the celtic horned god called cernunnos, among others

devil (n.)
Old English deofol "a devil, a subordinate evil spirit afflicting humans;" also, in Christian theology, "the Devil, a powerful spirit of evil otherwise known as Satan," from Late Latin diabolus (also the source of Italian diavolo, French diable, Spanish diablo; German Teufel is Old High German tiufal, from Latin via Gothic diabaulus).

The Late Latin word is from Ecclesiastical Greek diabolos, which in Jewish and Christian use was "the Devil, Satan," and which in general use meant "accuser, slanderer" (thus it was a scriptural loan-translation of Hebrew satan; see Satan). It is an agent noun from Greek diaballein "to slander, attack," literally "to throw across," from dia "across, through" (see dia-) + ballein "to throw" (from PIE root *gwele- "to throw, reach").
source

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1213 · Oct 31, 2019

Skwim said:
Then why not stop him?
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I think the reason is that this lesson ("life") is still needed, there is still people who want to know what evil means.

Skwim · Oct 31, 2019

1213 said:
I think the reason is that this lesson ("life") is still needed,

What lesson is that, and why is it needed?

there is still people who want to know what evil means.

Then tell them. Evil is anything "morally reprehensible." "Something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity." "It's iniquity, sin, villainy," OR just send them to a dictionary. :shrug:

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1213 · Nov 1, 2019

Skwim said:
What lesson is that, and why is it needed?

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In this “life” we can learn what good and evil means. It is needed, because people wanted to know evil.

ZenMonkey · Nov 1, 2019

Skwim said:
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In another thread it was brought up that "Satan has killed every person ever born and all those who are still yet to be born. Satan resides in the flesh of every man. And he resided in the flesh of Adam. And when Adam sinned, death has passed to all humans. Therefore, Satan is charged with killing everyone."

Which brought to mind the following questions:

Who is responsible for Satan's being? That is, who allows his continued existence? Who has the ability to stop him, but chooses not to? Give you a clue, his name/title starts with a "g" and ends with a "d."

And because Satan is allowed to exist obviously the god of Abraham is pleased with what he does, seducing humans into sin or falsehood. In other words, god want's humans to sin, which is contrary to what Christians have told me about their god.

That about right, or is my reasoning off?

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I can call myself Satan and it would be as true as the skies are above this earth. Honestly, I think we all are. I mean the term literally means adversary or enemy, and well ... I'm an enemy. What's puzzling you? The nature of my game? Some say it's all the same and what's in a name and it's all a game but not but still the same. It's like a kid and a new toy. We all need something to play with, so why not have a few ... toys I mean. Some like puppets, others cars, some horses and others planets like Mars, some like men, others like woman, but then I truly and mean I really really really really really really hate ... Umm ... evil err ... I mean the stuff I don't freaking like or enjoy.

Skwim · Nov 1, 2019

1213 said:
In this “life” we can learn what good and evil means. It is needed, because people wanted to know evil.

People would also like to know great wealth, so should we expose them to it so they know what it means? . . . . .Can I be first?

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syo · Nov 2, 2019

Skwim said:
And because Satan is allowed to exist obviously the god of Abraham is pleased with what he does, seducing humans into sin or falsehood. In other words, god want's humans to sin, which is contrary to what Christians have told me about their god.

Exactly. Satan is the temptation. God wants it this way, he tests humans since the beginning in Eden. But God wants for humans to not fall into temptation. But the temptation is there, because of God.

Skwim · Nov 2, 2019

syo said:
Exactly. Satan is the temptation. God wants it this way, he tests humans since the beginning in Eden. But God wants for humans to not fall into temptation. But the temptation is there, because of God.

But isn't god omniscient? That's what all the Christians say. And if he is he already knows how they would test out. So no need for any testing.

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syo · Nov 4, 2019

Skwim said:
But isn't god omniscient? That's what all the Christians say. And if he is he already knows how they would test out. So no need for any testing.

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that way God adds free will to humans.

Thoughts On The Partnership Of God And Satan

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