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When ALL Doesn't Mean All
- Thread starter ZenMonkey
- Start date
kjw47
Well-Known Member
It is good news to those who learn and obey. Blind guides tell others-you are saved or born again and he does NOT know. So those go through life believing they are saved no matter what and they weren't to begin with according to Jesus-Matt 10:22. They don't bother learning and obeying.
Semantics are often inaccurate, because a form which works for some words may not work if you substitute other words. The logic of the formal statement depends upon what you put into the statement, much like it were a cake with ingredients. You cannot substitute all white powders for one another. I can say something which seems to have sense but which is nonsensical: "How many All's does it take to screw in all lightbulbs? Does it take all of them? Is there more than one?" This makes no sense despite having a grammatical structure and words that appear to relate as fashioned. Maybe All is referring to all of one kind of thing.
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
Maybe, but then all loving, all merciful, all knowing, etc ... I guess my contention is with those who think some should not be included in the all loving, all merciful, and lets not forget the ... not willing that any perish. What's life worth? I guess that depends on who you ask. What's in the life of a woman or man, or all woman and all men, and how does life differ from one to the next and I guess the value determination would be in the degree in which they have happiness or lack thereof. All who live live ... There's an all for ya, yet not all have the same quality of life. All who live die, yet not all will die satisfied with the life they leave behind. All loving, all merciful ... tell me, where's the all when it comes to those two very important aspects of a God who is said to be both, yet who, and by those who, profess to be true to, are often times condemned, judged, held down, place below, and then badger with ... You guessed it ... The concept of hell on top of the hell some already live, and an unashamed manner in which many don't mind to harass those these types don't agree with in relation to never allowing them to ever find comfort in this life, nor the expectation to find it in the next either. All loving, all merciful ... not willing to let any perish .... I guess in the end, all means all, as in all get about the same expectations. As for the all merciful ... Sometimes, and for more than many, to die is to be shown mercy, given the harrassment, lack of comfort given, and the hope taken from so many people in this world, but hey! To find that comfort, to be accepted, to be "saved", all ya gotta do is ... let someone else suffer and die for things you yourself done. Now you see why all get the same expectations in life. The trick is in living the life we have today, finding happiness today, and being free enough to do so.
I know that love begins with how people treat one another. I agree in many ways and am very happy you have found freedom.
Let us suppose you are right about this nemesis or this concept or this conspiracy of a schizophrenic deity. Then there are a lot of broken people whose lives are intertwined in it, like trees that are held up by their vines. Are you going to cut those vines or strengthen the trees, first? If it is like a cancer then to succeed as a cancer surgeon don't you also need a good anesthesiologist? Maybe these analogies don't work for you, but people are fragile. They don't bend but break. To be flexible an athlete must first be strong, or their muscles will be damaged by stretching. No one knows the secret to conversion (which is what you are talking about, really). The established formula is to endure the spite of those who mistrust you and to win them over with your good reputation. That is all you can do in my opinion. Live and be free and know your stuff.
I see there is only One All knowing, All Loving, All etc, God. The Holy Spirit is the All we can see and know of God, the First the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega. In this world that light shines from God's chosen Messenger, or each Messenger is 'Christ'.
I see we have a choice to consider what is the All, to remove the dross from the mirror of our heart, that prevents the All reflecting therefrom. The Unconstrained.
We are all included in a world, where our choices make us who we are. We are mirrors of light covered in the darkness of this world. I see we are an enemation of the Holy Spirit and we remove our dross by turning to our source, accepting the Light within and living that light.
Regards Tony
I believe that you are looking at things through purely human eyes, rather than from God’s perspective. It is God’s desire that “none should perish”.....but he can not tolerate those who refuse to obey him in “all” things...for the sake of the obedient ones. Disobedience is what got us into this mess in the fist place. What has happened since is us proving to ourselves that we can’t have what our hearts desire without accomplishing it within the framework set by our Creator....who is “all loving” and “all merciful” to those who take him up on his offer of salvation. Why do you think the road to life is “cramped and narrow”? Can you travel that difficult road or do you want the obstacles removed? If you do, then you are on the wrong road. We are all being tested as to fitness for life in God’s kingdom. So who put the obstacles there? Who wants us to give up because it’s too hard? Not God.
It is true that some humans live worse lives than other people’s pets.....but realistically why does such a situation exist? What possible reason could God have for allowing such inequality?
If you know your Bible, that should be easy to answer.
Who was the cause of all our problems from the beginning? Was it God? Read Genesis and see the incredible start that God gave to mankind, and what he asked in return for the most idyllic existence that humans could ever imagine.....
Now what happened to take that idyllic life away from the human race? They chose to disobey when they had no good reason to. This is why we all are living this life.....no matter what our circumstances are, rulership of humankind was handed over to the god they chose. (Luke 4:5-6) You become the slave to the one you obey. All through human history the Bible has recorded the contrast between what results when humans obey God and what happens when they don’t. All this was setting precedents for the future. Free will, when it is abused, does not ever result in good outcomes. A willingness to obey God has to come from the heart, it should never be done grudgingly. If you see him as the fun police, then you have missed the point of everything he has done since Eden.
Really? I believe that this is the time of the end.....the time when Jesus will judge the world, not by human standards, but by God’s. He has given all an opportunity to learn about him and his purpose for our being here. He makes it quite clear as to what is acceptable to him and what isn’t. At the end of the day, not a single “sheep” will be missing. The “goats” on the other hand, will find no place in the coming arrangement on the “new earth”. (2 Peter 3:13)
Since the Bible’s “hell” is merely the grave, no one has to fear eternal torment....the dead “sleep”, (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10) so the “goats” will simply forfeit their lives as those who failed to abide by the rules of their tenancy here. The Landlord has the right to evict them....permanently. This is a judgment period, just as it was in Noah’s day. Jesus used it as an example of what would occur again at his return. (Matthew 24:37-39)
Why try to find excuses to do our own will, when that has always been our problem? It never ends well. By doing God’s will from the heart, we can secure our place in paradise forever.....the Christian message is good news...remember? God will take us back to Eden, but only if we have learned the value of the greatest object lesson in history.
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
If only I were free. I'm just as bound as they are if not more so. I've dedicated 25 to 30 years of my life to the pursuit of understanding the scriptures, while remaining true to my convictions. I'm a Christian. I understand the need to be strengthened, and yes ... the vines grow with and sometimes hinder, yet the vines also provide resistance, which in the end will either strengthen, or completely choke the life from the tree.
Like tares and wheat, thorns, rocks, and of course those who never have the chance to begin at all. The entire process is about increase, and producing desirable things in life, which many things in life tend to prevent. Sometimes, and I'm not afraid to admit this, I lose hope, and with that loss of hope comes increased anger, and bitterness, and sometimes even rage. I would be more than happy to live free and pursue happiness again, but the vines are choking the life out of me.
I've been a unalversalist for almost as long as I've been a Christian. When I say universalist, I mean all ... No one or nothing left behind. I'll take both good and evil, light and darkness, God and devil, Lucifer and Emmanuel, hot and cold, pleasure and pain, and all life entails. Why? Because I believe what was written in Genesis ... That God rested from ALL his work and declared it ALL very good, which means exceedingly good. While I don't enjoy being bound, hands tied and feet shackled, I know the weight of it all is increasing my strength. It's the added awkwardness and continuous fighting that makes me so jaded, particularly when all I ever truly wanted for everyone is for everyone to find that place of happiness and live it out loud. But, now I'm bound, shackled, continually fought against, and forced away from everyone I've ever truly loved in life.
Alone, I walk travel and live as a vagabond. I'm very well educated, have more talent in my little finger than many could conjure up with their entire being, and yet here I am bound by the vines that hold me down and choke the life out of me. I'm unable to connect with those I care most about in life, and I try to live my best life, and despite not being able to live my best, and knowing this life is all I'll ever know as myself, I endure and place my hope in those who will come after, as in those who will occupy this world tomorrow and after I'm gone. I place my hope in future descendants, and although I try, I can't seem to help any understand the severity of this present moment and every present moment that has yet to be lived. Instead, I do my best to survive ... and that's about it. Survival ... my own that is, seems to be the best I can muster given the vines that stunt and hinder my own progress.
The key is the Oneness of God.
Look at life as refracted light of God, the resulting rainbow. All those colours are of God, all revert back to the pure light.
If we Choose to see Christ in all, then we have understood what Jesus was telling us to see. If we cling to a name of Jesus, we prevent ourselves seeing Christ in the other Messengers from God. Jesus tells us how to recognise True Prophets or Messengers.
Regards Tony
I find that Jesus died for ALL, but that Not ALL will accept him.
ALL are covered if they want to be covered. Not ALL want to be covered.
This is why Matthew 20:28 says that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say ALL.
It's easy to demonstrate that in the Bible, "all" doesn't always mean "each and every last one". Here's how:
Look up every passage having the word "all". If there are any in which "all" clearly doesn't mean "each and every last one", then that's the proof.
I have done this exercise. There are many passages in which "all" doesn't mean "each and every last one".
ZenMonkey
St. James VII
How about the omni's ? Omnipresent, Omniscient, etc?
All present, all knowing, you know the all encompassing aspects of who God is often boasted to being? If the all loving and all merciful doesn't apply, then I would assume that the others don't also.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Jesus death covers--those living now to do his Fathers will-Matthew 7:21-- These have learned and applied-EVERY utterance from God, as Jesus taught-Man MUST live by them. Repentence( the stopping of the doing of a sin) gets sin blotted out. Acts 3:19)
And the unfortunate fact that there is more than 1 Jesus being taught to this world.
...and I find there is more than 1 God being taught to this world even though Scripture teaches only one true God.
Yes, sin blotted out if one ' repents ' as per 2 Peter 3:9, or one will ' perish ' ( be destroyed - Psalms 92:7 )
What I find of late are some who do charity soup-kitchen works as being Christian works.
When I say even an atheist can be a good Samaritan or a pollyanna I've gotten No response.
I find No where did Jesus say give to the poor to get life, instead Jesus said come be my follower.
So, although charity can be commendable and beneficial, being a Christian involves more.
Involves more because Jesus trained his followers to be disciples to preach everywhere - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8