Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

I do think I see one assumption I take exception to.

3rdAngel said:

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

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Here is how I see things: The practice of the Sabbath never ends for Jews, however Christians are not Jews. We represent the future where all people are transformed. Every vessel is holy in the future. Zechariah We are called the firstfruits. James Therefore even though we aren't practicing the Sabbaths we're considering ourselves as firstfruits of the larger Sabbath rest when everything is finished. We live in the new creation. John

3rdAngel said:

13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

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Not for Jews and that is never possible for Jews, and there will always be Jews.

3rdAngel said:

12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

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This is not possible as long as there are Jews.

3rdAngel said:

The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.

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The Sabbath commandment was given specifically to Jews. I don't see anywhere that it was imposed on gentiles. I could be wrong of course, but if so, please show me where in scripture that Sabbath observance applies to gentiles.

Brickjectivity said:

Here is how I see things: The practice of the Sabbath never ends for Jews, however Christians are not Jews.

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This

3rdAngel said:

According to God's Word in the new covenant, God's LAW (10 commandments) give us the knowledge of Good and Evil; Sin and Rightouesness *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. According to God's Word in the new covenant if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. Everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated through out the new covenant.

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For your doctrine to work; you have to differentiate between the 10 commandments and the rest of God's Law. This comes from the erroneous idea that God only said the 10 commandments and Moses said the rest of the Law. However we can easily prove the error of this reasoning by citing the numerous times throughout the Law of Moses that God affirms it is Himself who is speaking.

Here is a simple keyword search of the phrase "I am the LORD" in the books of Exodus through Deuteronomy.

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search

You will notice that throughout the Law and even as Moses is delivering various commandments God keeps saying "I am the LORD". That is to assure us that it is indeed God giving every single commandment and not Moses. Moses is only the messenger.

Even Jesus said that not one jot or tittle will pass away until all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18) That means you cannot say that most of the Law is fulfilled and only 10 commandments are still valid. No, either the whole Law is fulfilled or none of it.

This is why James says "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

That's exactly against what you want people to do. You want them to keep part of the Law and offend in the other parts of the Law. This is not the way the Law is supposed to be used. In conclusion; you are not allowed to separate 10 commandments from the rest of the Law. At least not according to the scriptures.

3rdAngel said:

4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Matthew 12:1-12; Mark 2:27-28; Matthew 5:17-19; Hebrews 4:1-11; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revalation 1:10; 12:17:14:12: 22:14

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Sorry, but you're misrepresenting those scriptures. Virtually none of them are legitimate proof of the sabbath day being commanded to be kept in the new Covenant. Without going through every single verse you list; I will give some examples.

• In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus is clearly talking about the entire Law of Moses not just the 10 commandments. So either the whole thing is fulfilled or not any of it.
• Hebrews 4:1-11 is not talking about keeping the sabbath day every week but instead is speaking of the rest of God that is to come for people who endure to the end.
• Many of these verses are from the gospels before the new Covenant was given! So of course the sabbath was being kept at that time! For example Mark 2:27-28. IT's important for people to understand that the new Covenant doesn't come about except through the death and resurrection of Jesus. THEN and only then is the new Covenant given. (see Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25) So before the blood of Jesus was spilled; the Law of Moses is in full effect and the sabbath had to be kept. Because the blood of Jesus is the blood of the new Covenant.
• Acts 18:4 doesn't prove that the Sabbath has to be kept in the new Covenant. All it says is that he reasoned with the Jews in the synagogue every sabbath.
• The Revelation references just say the "Lord's day". I don't see how you think that is proof the Sabbath has to be kept.

3rdAngel said:

Actually no brother. The old covenant was made up of both God's 10 Commanments *Exodus 34:28 and the "shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7. Together these made up the old covenant. God's Law (10 commandments) were placed inside the ark of the covenant under the mercy seat *Deuteronomy 10:5 while the book of the covenant * Exodus 24:7 was placed in the side of the ark * Deuteronomy 31:26, Together they made up the old covenant.

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Well, everything in the ark was under the mercy seat because it was on top of the ark. In the new Covenant we don't need the old ark of the Covenant because we have the real and actual "mercy seat" that is the throne of grace that we can access boldly whenever we are in need. Unlike the old Covenant which only the high priest could enter the holiest place with proper oblations.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:16)

3rdAngel said:

It is the book of the covenant and shadow laws for remission of sin and the levitical priesthood and sanctuary laws and sin offering s that have been done away in the new covenant *Hebrews 7-10. While God's Law (10 Commandments) in the new covenant give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; John 3:4 and according to God's Word in the new covenant if we break any one of God's 10 commandment we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

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Again Paul and James are talking about the whole Law of Moses that gives conscience of sin. Not just the 10 commandments. Even Jesus said that the greatest commandments were to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. That means these two commandments are greater than the 10 commandments!

But in the new Covenant there is a new Law. This is the holy Spirit. As you can read for yourself:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom. 8:4)
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Gal. 5:16)
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Gal. 5:18)
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2 Cor. 3:6)


This is the real "perfect Law of liberty" (James 1:35)

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (2 Cor. 3:17)


James 1:22-25
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

This mirror that is spoken of called the perfect Law of liberty. Look who it is:

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

You see the mirror/glass is the glory o the Lord Jesus and we are supposed to be being changed into that image more and more as by the Spirit of the Lord which is the real "Law" of the new Covenant.

3rdAngel said:

The new covenant is God's law written in the heart to love and love is the fulfilling of the law in the life of the believer *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4.

Hope this helps.

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The true Law that is written in the heart is the guidance and the nurture of the holy Spirit. As it is written;

Jeremiah 31:33-34
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

As you can see they will all know the LORD in the new Covenant. That is because His Spirit that He will put in them will be as a Law to them! And God Himself will be their teacher and His Spirit will lead and guide them into all truth. (John 16:13)

John 15:5 without me ye can do nothing! But if you abide in Him you bring forth much fruit. This is the fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-23) It is as a Law written in the heart rather on paper or stones.

This is why the prophecy of Ezekiel says that God will take away their stony heart and give them a heart of flesh. Because they had the stones of the covenant but Jesus Himself incarnate in flesh would be their new heart He would give them. His Spirit would be their Law.

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Which is all symbolic in the book of Revelation when the river of Life flows from the throne of God. (Revelation 22:1) If you have enthroned Christ in your heart then the Spirit of God flows from the throne of God and is your river of life and your Law. As is prophesied that a "law will proceed from me" (Isaiah 51:4) and of those who receive the Lord "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38)

Katzpur said:

Well, the Bible says that He was to be resurrected on the third day following His death. Neither Saturday nor Sunday was the third day following Friday. Maybe He was crucified on a Thursday. I mean, there are a lot of holes in the "three day" thing, no matter how you look at it.

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The Bible clearly says that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday and resurrected on a Saturday.

I ask you to -read- the site I have linked to you.
When Was Jesus Christ Crucified and Resurrected? : Did He Really Die on Good Friday and Come Back to Life on Easter Sunday?

3rdAngel said:

Hi all,

The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

...................

Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).

God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.

Look forward to your thoughts...

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( The Canons of Laodicea )

Men told them to do so (at least originally) -and told them sabbath-keepers were anathema from Christ.
Not only the weekly Sabbath, according to them, but the yearly sabbaths (holy days given by God in the bible) were not to be kept.

(These mention the "Jews", etc., but the "Jews" -house of Judah -represent only 2 of the Israelite tribes (plus likely some Levites).
Biblical scripture actually specifies "the Jews'" feast (of Tabernacles -which Christ and the others then kept) -but it does not refer to all Israelites.
One can be an Israelite, but not a "Jew" in this regard. This is not to say that all Israel did not/were not to keep the feast of Tabernacles -but the house of Israel and the house of Judah had already split -and they were going where the Jews were observing it. The house of Israel -10 of the tribes -eventually lost their original language and identity for the most part.)

"The Synod of Laodicea met at that place called Laodicea in Phrygia Pacatiana, now found in modern Turkey. It is agreed by most scholars that the Synod met in the year 363 A.D.

Canons

........................................................................
Canon 29. Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

.......................................................................
Canon 37. It is not lawful to receive portions sent from the feasts of Jews or heretics, nor to feast together with them.

.......................................................................
Canon 38. It is not lawful to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety."

(New Testament scripture actually indicates that Christ, Jews, other Israelites [which could technically be considered gentile if it means specifically not JEWish rather than not Isrealite] and gentiles of the New Testament "church of God" ALL KEPT -AND ARE WERE TAUGHT TO KEEP -THE ORIGINAL SABBATH AND HOLY DAYS GIVEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT)

I will try to provide verses showing that later -but you will not find anything in scripture which says people should not keep the sabbaths of God.

3rdAngel said:

Hi all,

The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

...................

Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).

God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.

Look forward to your thoughts...

Click to expand...

Back up a minute. It seems like you're assuming that the Bible isn't a "manmade tradition from the Church" itself. Why?

3rdAngel said:

Good point Rob as Jesus did fulfill all of God's LAWS both the Mosaic shadow laws from the book of the law as well as God's 10 Commandments written on stone. If he didn't he could not be our perfect sacrifice. Jesus fulfilling God's law however does not mean we are now free to break it however. In fact JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART. BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

God bless

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Also, remember that Jesus couldn't do the atonement unless he followed all eight beatitudes.

sealchan said:

Yes...Jesus clearly argued in many, many of his teachings for sincerity of belief over the appearance of complying legalistically. The OP evidences the very illness that Jesus came to cure. Hebrews 10:16

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Hello sealchan, nice to meet you .

Thanks brother good points and that is all the OP is about. It is only seeking to question the things we are taught at church to see if we are following God's Word or the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God's Word which has happened all through time demonstrated in God's Word to his people all through time.

wellwisher said:

Sunday is the first day of creation; let there be light. This day was dedicated to the Sun (day) or Son (day). Saturday was the day of rest. Changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday was symbolic of second cycle of creation, that begins anew on the day of the Son.

Saturday ended the first cycle; day of rest, while Sunday began a new dispensation, connected to the spirit of truth. This cycle of creation is connected to the Holy Spirit of God and the revealing of the children of God. Christ dying on the cross was not an ending; a Sabbath rest, but was also a new beginning. If he did not go, he could not leave behind the Comforter.

Right now we have the Old Testament and New Testament. But the bible should be a trinity of books, with a third book needing to be compiled. The last 2000 years has had many changes, led by God's spirit of truth being among mankind.

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Hi wellwisher, nice to meet you as well . In my view brother I think were your post falls short and does not consider is that the creation week has no shadow application as it is a part of a "finished work" as shown in Genesis 2:1-3 which was made "before the fall of mankind" (no sin no shadows no plan of salvation needed). Man was in perfect harmony with God at the end of creation and there was no need for a plan of salvation until after the fall. This alone shows why your post is in error.

sealchan said:

So when a law is written into your heart does that mean that your heart is bound to a rule or that you no longer need the rule because you deeply understand the value underlying the rule? This url provides multiple Scriptural examples of Jesus' teaching about the heart of the law over the letter... Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12 - Common English Bible

The law is a sign post leading the way to righteousness but we must walk far past this signpost for us to arrive at the kingdom of heaven.

Sincerity of heart trumps all outward appearances. There are too many scriptures to count let alone for me to cut and paste on my phone.

Even Jesus' apostles were confused by his words. That is because they were still trying to grasp his meaning legalistically rather than with their hearts.

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Yes it is bound to a rule to love and love is the fulfilling of God's LAW. This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 and is why JESUS says if you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15 and again
on these two commandments (love to God and man) hang all the law and the prophets *Matthew 22:36-40. This is also demonstrated by Paul in Romans 13:8-10; Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself., Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law and in James 2:8-12. Point here brother is that LOVE fulfills and establishes Gods law *Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4 and why Jesus say if you love me keep my commandments.

JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART.

BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

Can we have GRACE without God's LAW if the purpose of God's LAW is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172?

sealchan said:

A Christian takes a job requiring that they work weekends. They avoid work on one of their days off (let's say Tuesday). Do you find fault with them or recognize their sincerity and righteousness?

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I do not judge you brother I am only sharing God's Word and questioning if we are being taught the truth from Gods Word by our churches. What I do know that may help is that at the end of creation God rested from all the work that he made blessed the "seventh day" and set it apart as a "Holy day" of rest for mankind as a memorial of the finished word of creation that he made one of the 10 commandments *Exodus 20:1-17 (v8-11). According to God's Word in the new covenant, God's LAW gives us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. If we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word he calls us to believe and follow it *Acts 17:30-31; James 4:17. If we continue in known unrepentant sin we can lose our salvation *Hebrews 10:26-39.
If in our heart we want to believe and follow God's Word; we do not have to worry about work on the Sabbath as God can find us new work outside of Sabbath hours so that we can follow him because we love him. He just asks us to put him first *John 6:33; John 8:31-36

God bless

Brickjectivity said:

I do think I see one assumption I take exception to. Here is how I see things: The practice of the Sabbath never ends for Jews, however Christians are not Jews. We represent the future where all people are transformed. Every vessel is holy in the future. Zechariah We are called the firstfruits. James Therefore even though we aren't practicing the Sabbaths we're considering ourselves as firstfruits of the larger Sabbath rest when everything is finished. We live in the new creation. John Not for Jews and that is never possible for Jews, and there will always be Jews.
This is not possible as long as there are Jews.

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The problem with your post brother is that there was no JEWS and no Sin when Gods Sabbath was created *Genesis 2:1-3 and according to JESUS the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27. So the application to the Jews only is a false one.

David1967 said:

The Sabbath commandment was given specifically to Jews. I don't see anywhere that it was imposed on gentiles. I could be wrong of course, but if so, please show me where in scripture that Sabbath observance applies to gentiles.

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Hello Dave nice to see you again. As posted earlier the problem with this argument is the JESUS say that the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27. There was no JEWS and no Sin when Gods Sabbath was created *Genesis 2:1-3 and according to JESUS the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27. So the application to the Jews only is a false one. God's 4th commandment says..

EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY [Made Holy at creation GENESIS 2:3]. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], But THE SEVENTH DAY [ Genesis 2:1-3] IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD : in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, NOR THE FOREIGNER THAT IS WITHIN YOUR GATES: [WHY?] [11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY; WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY. [Refering to GENESIS 2:1-3]

The Hebrew word used here is גּר גּיר; gêr gêyr From H1481; properly a guest ; by implication a foreigner: - alien, sojourner, stranger.

In the new covenant there are no more Jew and gentiles believers. All are one in Christ and gentiles believers are now grafted in to Gods Israel who are all those who believe and follow Gods Word. If you are not a part of God's Israel than you have no part in the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12

God bless

@Everyone seems it was busy when I was here last. I will try and catch up more latter when I get some more time. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and the nice friendly discussion here.

May God bless you all as you continue in his Word.

3rdAngel said:

Hi all,

The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

...................

Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).

God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.

Look forward to your thoughts...

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After reading through all of the responses here, many of which cite scriptures to back up their claims and quite a few that directly contradict one another, all I can conclude is that the god of the Christian bible is a VERY poor communicator.

QuestioningMind said:

After reading through all of the responses here, many of which cite scriptures to back up their claims and quite a few that directly contradict one another, all I can conclude is that the god of the Christian bible is a VERY poor communicator.

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Hi QuestioningMind nice to meet you and welcome here .

I was just getting ready to go out for now and read this one so thought I would make a quick reply. It is not that God is a very poor communicator it is just that we cannot know or understand God's Word if God is not our teacher and guide. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned *1 Corinthians 2:14 and as the heavens are higher than the earth so are God's way from ours *Isaiah 55:6-9. God however promises to be our teacher if we prayerfully ask him to guide us and teach us his word *John 14:26; John 16:13; John 17:17; John 7:17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 2:27 and Hebrews 8:11. What your seeing here is a fulfillment of the scriptures that say in the last days there will be many false teachers *Matthre 24:24. That is why this thread is questioning why many churches are teaching us to follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9 and lead us away from the pure Word of God.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

3rdAngel said:

Hi QuestioningMind nice to meet you and welcome here .

I was just getting ready to go out for now and read this one so thought I would make a quick reply. It is not that God is a very poor communicator it is just that we cannot know or understand God's Word if God is not our teacher and guide. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned *1 Corinthians 2:14 and as the heavens are higher than the earth so are God's way from ours *Isaiah 55:6-9. God however promises to be our teacher if we prayerfully ask him to guide us and teach us his word *John 14:26; John 16:13; John 17:17; John 7:17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 2:27 and Hebrews 8:11. What your seeing here is a fulfillment of the scriptures that say in the last days there will be many false teachers *Matthre 24:24. That is why this thread is questioning why many churches are teaching us to follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9 and lead us away from the pure Word of God.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

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Yet, we have people on here citing scripture to back up their positions... even when those positions are diametrically opposed. And I would bet that virtually all of them will claim that God is their teacher and that they 'spiritually discerned' the 'truth' in what they are claiming. YOU claim that THEY are following the teachings of men, while THEY will claim that it's YOU who is following the teachings of men. Yet none of you can provide incontrovertible evidence that your claim is true, because if there WAS such evidence, you'd all be in agreement.

When a message is first delivered to people who lived thousands of years ago who spoke and wrote in languages that no one uses any longer and then fallible human beings who lived centuries later got together and decided what writings were and were not 'inspired by God', it's a recipe for mass confusion. So not only do we end up with innumerable different religions, like Hinduism, Islam, and Scientology, within Christianity there are 1000's of different sects who can't agree on what this bible actually says.

Sorry, but from everything I can see, this god of yours is an absolutely horrible communicator.

3rdAngel said:

The problem with your post brother is that there was no JEWS and no Sin when Gods Sabbath was created *Genesis 2:1-3 and according to JESUS the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27. So the application to the Jews only is a false one.

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I hear you and applaud your efforts. Allow me to share from my painful experiences if you can benefit from them. If not, I will not hold disagreement against you. Nobody has been wrong more times than I have. Who knows what I'll be wrong about next?

In Mark 2:27 (as referred to in the quoted post ) Jesus is saying that the sabbath is made for the sake of people and not people for the sabbath's sake, yet only Jews are commanded to keep sabbaths in the law. This returns us to the idea that Christians are not Jews.

3rdAngel said:

Hi URAVIP2ME nice to meet you. The Mosaic book of the law written by Moses as dorected by God i*Deuteronomy 31:24-26 is not the same as God's Law (10 commandments) which is the work of God alone written by God on two tables of stone *Exodus 32:16. According to God's Word, Gods LAW in the new covenant gives us the knowledge of Good and Evil; Sin and Rightouesness *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we knowingly break any one of them *James 4:17 we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.
This was posted somewhere else but will repost this section here. Romans 10:4 does not say that there is no more law otherwise in is contradicting JESUS and the rest of the bible. JESUS says "think not that I have come to destroy the law...Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:17-19 Then Paul says; "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law" *Romans 3:31 and again from Paul "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit *Romans 8:1-4. There are many more scripture that can be shared here that contradict your sources claims but we will stop here.
Now as you can see your sources interpretation is in contradiction to both what Jesus says and what Paul says elsewhere as shown above so .
What Paul is saying in Romans 10:4 is the same as what he says in GALATIANS 3:22-25 and that is, the Law (10 Commandments) is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be forgiven by faith. The LAW leads us to Christ. It shows us that we are all sinners *Romans 3:10 in need of a Saviour to save us from sin *Matthew 9:12-13 and reveals the Saviour to us as the Saviour from sin. Romans 10:4 is talking about those who are trying to establish their own rightouesness through the law which is the context provided in *Romans 10:1-3 your source leaves out. We cannot establish our own rightesousness because we are not rightouess to begin with and we are already sinners condemned by the law *Romans 6:23. Rightoeusness only comes as we believe and follow God's Word (Christ) to which the law points all sinners to (the end of the law). *GALATIANS 3:22-25

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I find 'The Ten' are just the first of over 600+ laws of the Constitution of the temporary Mosaic Law contract or covenant with just one nation, the nation of ancient Israel.
Since Pentecost Christians are under the Law of Christ, Not the Mosaic Law.
- Romans 7:6 (delivered from the Law); Ephesians 2:15-16 (abolished the law....); Colossians 2:14( blotting out...); Galatians 3:13 (redeemed from...); Matthew 5:17 Jesus fulfilled the Law...

Jesus will decide who is righteous at the coming 'time of separation' as found at Matthew 25:31-33; Matthew 25:37

3rdAngel said:

Hello Dave nice to see you again. As posted earlier the problem with this argument is the JESUS say that the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27. There was no JEWS and no Sin when Gods Sabbath was created *Genesis 2:1-3 and according to JESUS the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27. So the application to the Jews only is a false one. God's 4th commandment says..

EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY [Made Holy at creation GENESIS 2:3]. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], But THE SEVENTH DAY [ Genesis 2:1-3] IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD : in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, NOR THE FOREIGNER THAT IS WITHIN YOUR GATES: [WHY?] [11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY; WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY. [Refering to GENESIS 2:1-3]

The Hebrew word used here is גּר גּיר; gêr gêyr From H1481; properly a guest ; by implication a foreigner: - alien, sojourner, stranger.

In the new covenant there are no more Jew and gentiles believers. All are one in Christ and gentiles believers are now grafted in to Gods Israel who are all those who believe and follow Gods Word. If you are not a part of God's Israel than you have no part in the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12

God bless

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Yes. The Sabbath is on Saturday not Sunday. Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath and I find knowhere that He intended for his followers to change the day from Saturday to Sunday.