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Did Jesus Commit Suicide?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
I'm just connecting things together with logic, not asking you to believe anything. Anyway, how do you take my point?
nPeace
Veteran Member
No reasonable person thinks these were suicidal.
10-year-old girl sacrifices life to save others
10 People Who Sacrificed Their Lives To Save Others
Here are some people whom I think needs a lesson in history, and definitely being taught the truth.
They did get part of the statement right though - the last part.
The Best Fictional Characters Who Sacrificed Themselves
Surely Skwim is reasonable.
Edit.
Oh @Skwim . I didn't realize there was an actual resurrection part. Cool.
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When Jesus was presented to Caiaphas in the lead up to His crucifixion the claim Jesus being the Son of God is specifically mentioned (Matthew 26:57-75) not the Divinity claim.
While there are verses that allude to the Divinity of Christ, especially in the Gospel of John, there are none that explicitly state He is God incarnate. The Divinity of Christ doesn’t appear to be part of the dialogue with Christ’s inquisition at all.
I agree the Son of God is a title rather than being literal. While there is the verse Jews are all sons of God, Jesus is the only begotten Son (John 3:16). One also needs to consider the virgin birth as recorded in Matthew and Luke.
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
I do not believe so.
If someone were to die taking a bullet for someone else, I wouldn't describe that as a suicide either.
That, in essence, is what the Lord Jesus Christ did for us.
Skwim
Veteran Member
[
Suicide is deliberately putting oneself in a position so as to die. One doesn't intend to die by taking a bullet for someone else. At worse a bad wound would be hoped for, not death. So I agree. Taking a bullet for someone else isn't suicide.
On the other hand, Jesus was obviously aware of his mission to give up his life. And that's what he set out to do; to purposely die by means of a judicial form of "suicide by cop."
(Suicide by cop is a suicide method in which an individual deliberately behaves in such a way as to provoke a lethal response from a public safety or law enforcement officer.)
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I disagree.
Suicide is deliberately putting oneself in a position so as to die. One doesn't intend to die by taking a bullet for someone else. At worse a bad wound would be hoped for, not death. So I agree. Taking a bullet for someone else isn't suicide.
On the other hand, Jesus was obviously aware of his mission to give up his life. And that's what he set out to do; to purposely die by means of a judicial form of "suicide by cop."
(Suicide by cop is a suicide method in which an individual deliberately behaves in such a way as to provoke a lethal response from a public safety or law enforcement officer.)
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Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Hmm...
I'd say no. He knew his fate, but simply accepted it.
I'd say no. He knew his fate, but simply accepted it.
Right. This is why I'm confused by you referring to him as "the Resurrected Christ" before he was crucified.
Sure. Or the whole story, including the character of Jesus, was made up.
It's probably not immediately obvious, but when I talk about "Jesus," unless I put some sort of qualifier on it, I'm talking about the character in the Gospels. When I talk about his behaviours and actions, I'm approaching it in the way I'd talk about the behaviours and actions of, say Hamlet or Darth Vader.
Now... how well (or whether) Jesus the literary character reflects some real historical figure(s) is a question that could be asked, but it's not a question I'm interested in going into in this thread. When the OP asks "did Jesus commit suicide?" I'm responding with Jesus the character in the Gospels in mind... not some historical Jesus (if one even exists).
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Not sure how you would claim to know this.
Even if it was his choice however, the one who did the killing wasn't Jesus. So it becomes a lot like the "Give me your [X] or I will kill you." proposition. If you don't hand over the "[X]" is that suicide? Did the person demanding "[X]" simply HAVE TO kill you? Was it up to you to be killed the moment you refused? Or does the accountability still lie with the person who does the killing? I know what the law is bound say. I am sure you do as well.
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
Suicide requires a desire to die.
I don't think there is anything written or known about the Lord Jesus Christ that reveals that He had a desire to die.
He had a desire to save all of Mankind and He eventually came to understand that His death would be required in order to accomplish that goal.
The Bible even records that He asked the Father if there was any other way. (Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42)
He had no desire to die, but He was willing to sacrifice Himself to save us all.
A willingness to die for others is not a desire for death.
By your logic, any soldier who fought in any war ever was attempting suicide.
If someone believes that Jesus is God then, yes he did.
Skwim
Veteran Member
You don't think he knew his mission was to offer humans salvation and eternal life by dying for their sins? My bet is that at least 90% of Christians think so.
Yup. So he set out to do just that; purposely die by means of a judicial form of "suicide by cop."
That he may not have liked the idea of killing himself---what suicidal person doesn't wish there was another way out of their dilemma?---he was willing to do so. So he set out to do just that; in this case, insure that that he would die by a judicial form of "suicide by cop."
Nope, because every soldier prefers to stay alive. Jesus did not.
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Darkforbid
Well-Known Member
So you believe jesus was God,,, must be hard for you letting go of your agnostic stance
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
I believe that He eventually came to know this.
He came to the Earth to live as other men do and no man is born with any knowledge.
He had to grow and learn on His own and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Just as other men do.
No. He committed no crime. He did not tell anyone where He was.
It took the betrayal of a disciple for the authorities to find Him in the Garden.
No, I need to stop you there.
The Lord Jesus Christ was in no "dilemma" which is why His death was not a suicide.
He was the only mortal person to live without committing any sin. He also, being the literal Son of God in the flesh, had the ability to decide when to die. Nothing on Earth could have killed Him.
If He had decided not to suffer and die for the sins of others, He could have continued to live on the Earth indefinitely. Or He could have decided to pass through death and receive an instantaneous Resurrection and return to live with the Father in glory.
He would have been the only person to return from the Earth though.
However, because He loves us, He decided to heap unto Himself the sins and death of us all. He was willing to sacrifice His mortal life and suffer punishments intended for others.
As an example - imagine that you committed heinous crimes and were scheduled to be executed for them.
Then - all of a sudden - your friend who loves you arrives and somehow arranges your escape by impersonating you at your execution.
Your life and happiness are worth more to Him than His own.
I believe that you are confusing sacrifice with suicide.
Committing suicide - even "by cop" - is not the same as someone laying down their life on behalf of their loved ones.
The Bible clearly records that the Lord Jesus Christ had no desire to die - but He did love us enough to sacrifice His life for us.
This assertion is based on nothing.
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
Yahweh (Jehovah), the God of Israel, was the pre-mortal Jesus Christ.
He came into the world to save His people from their sins.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Silly. I simply go by what your book says. My agreement with anything in the Bible is no different than agreeing to abide by what is said in some Grimm fairy-tale. Want to claim that the witch in Hansel and Gretel is real? Okey dokey, let's examine this belief by assuming the witch is actually real. Same with Bible stories; let's examine this belief by assuming Jesus-is-god is a fact. See, I don't have to believe a fictional story in order to examine how its elements fit together.
This is kind of English 101.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
That's pretty personal information with no evidence. Whatcha got?
Sure he committed a crime. He committed sedition.
So what?
So what?
Sure there was. Jesus didn't want to die, which is why in Gethsemane he asked god if he really had to go through with the whole thing.
Matthew 26:39
39 Then Jesus went on a little farther away from them. He fell to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, don’t make me drink from this cup. But do what you want, not what I want.”
39 Then Jesus went on a little farther away from them. He fell to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, don’t make me drink from this cup. But do what you want, not what I want.”
But there was, wasn't there.
Matthew 27:48-50
48 Quickly, one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled the sponge with sour wine and tied the sponge to a stick. Then he used the stick to give the sponge to Jesus to get a drink from it. 49 But the others said, “Don’t bother him. We want to see if Elijah will come to save him.”
50 Again Jesus cried out loudly and then died.
48 Quickly, one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled the sponge with sour wine and tied the sponge to a stick. Then he used the stick to give the sponge to Jesus to get a drink from it. 49 But the others said, “Don’t bother him. We want to see if Elijah will come to save him.”
50 Again Jesus cried out loudly and then died.
1 Corinthians 15:4
He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.
But enough is enough. . . . . . . .
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MJFlores
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, it is erroneous to say that Jesus committed suicide.
It is without doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ mentioned to his disciples that he would be killed Matthew 16:21
Matthew 17:22-23 New International Version (NIV)
When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.
But Israel and Jerusalem has a high incidence of killing the messengers of God. To wit:
Matthew 23:37 New International Version (NIV)
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Luke 11:47, [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+11:48&version=NIV']Luke 11:48, [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7:52&version=NIV']Acts 7:52[/URL][/URL]
Being a prophet of God, such person is bound to be killed - how much more with being the Son of God?
Acts 7:52 New International Version (NIV)
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him—
Jesus Christ was betrayed and murdered
Sure he knew about it before it was to happen
But he did not like it and he was afraid.
Matthew 26:38-49 New International Version (NIV)
Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
It is without doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ mentioned to his disciples that he would be killed Matthew 16:21
Matthew 17:22-23 New International Version (NIV)
When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.
But Israel and Jerusalem has a high incidence of killing the messengers of God. To wit:
Matthew 23:37 New International Version (NIV)
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Luke 11:47, [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+11:48&version=NIV']Luke 11:48, [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7:52&version=NIV']Acts 7:52[/URL][/URL]
Being a prophet of God, such person is bound to be killed - how much more with being the Son of God?
Acts 7:52 New International Version (NIV)
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him—
Jesus Christ was betrayed and murdered
Sure he knew about it before it was to happen
But he did not like it and he was afraid.
Matthew 26:38-49 New International Version (NIV)
Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
The Gospel account attributed to Luke claims that the Lord Jesus Christ as a child "grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him." (Luke 2:40)
If he were to "wax strong" in anything He would first need to "wane in weakness" in that thing. He grew in spirit and was filled with wisdom.
The word "grace" means "divine help", so He received help from His Father in Heaven through the Holy Spirit in order to grow, become strong and gain wisdom.
The same chapter also claims that the young Lord spent three days in the temple with the doctors "both hearing them, and asking them questions." (Luke 2:46)
If He knew everything why spend any time at all with the experts of the Law and doctrine? Why listen to them? Why ask them questions?
He was learning about God and Himself and what He was to do with His time on the Earth.
I mean, honestly, what kind of example could He ever set for us if He was never like us at all? What hope could we receive from Him if He forever remained an un-relatable alien thing?
When did He challenge the authority of anyone?
Did He not command His disciples to "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's"?
Did He not often command those He taught and healed to go to the Temple afterward to make their oblations?
All He did was point out when those members of the Sanhedrin acted outside of the Law or beyond their own authority.
You claimed that He purposefully set out to die, when the record claims that He went into hiding and it took the betrayal of one of his disciples in order for those who would kill Him to find Him.
It sorta throws water in the face of your "suicide by cop" claim if He does everything to avoid the cops. Wouldn't you say?
Whoa. When I made this point earlier you claimed that 90% of Christians would disagree with me.
If you freely admit that the Lord Jesus Christ had no desire to die, then wherein lies your argument?
Those who commit suicide have a desire to die. The Lord Jesus Christ was willing to sacrifice His life, but He had no desire to do so.
Either you lack basic reading comprehension skills or you are being intentionally dishonest.
I did not claim that the Lord Jesus Christ could not die, I said "Nothing on Earth could have killed Him." (You even bolded this sentence! How could you have missed it!)
The Lord Jesus Christ could have hung on that cross until this very day because His Sire was the Immortal Father and King of the Universe.
The Lord explained this concept in John 5:26-27 when He said,
"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."
The Lord Jesus Christ had all power over His life. Nothing could take that from Him, but He also had the ability to die given Him from His mortal mother as well as the authority to judge when He could die.
This concept was illustrated in practice at the moment the Lord died on the cross,
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30)
He waited until the work had been finished and then he willingly gave up his life. He waited and suffered the required amount necessary for Him to offer salvation to all before he "gave up the ghost".
He had all power and authority over His life. If he had wanted, He could have broken the cross and continued to live on the Earth forever as a mortal man.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
When did it happen, please?
Jesus died a natural death:
[23:51]وَ جَعَلۡنَا ابۡنَ مَرۡیَمَ وَ اُمَّہٗۤ اٰیَۃً وَّ اٰوَیۡنٰہُمَاۤ اِلٰی رَبۡوَۃٍ ذَاتِ قَرَارٍ وَّ مَعِیۡنٍ ﴿٪۵۱﴾
And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them refuge on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 23: Al-Mu'minun
Where did Mary live to die?
Regards