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Heaven

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
If there is one ... where is it located? Also, given the litmus tests and all the rules and policies that tend to deny happiness and pleasure in life do you really want to go? It's better than hell ... I guess right? I kinda doubt it. Your heaven is more like my hell and my heaven is more like your hell, given what I enjoy and like and find pleasure in and am unashamed of. What about shame? Is there shame in heaven? If not why not?

By the way, after the last few years of constant struggle and judgement, and given the 25 plus years of dedicated discipleship and ministry, and a 19-19 year ordination, I decided to ditch the Christian title altogether. It has been coming on for about four years now, and even though i hold nothing against most adherents to, I'm too damn discouraged and pissed, and angry to continue claiming the title. Thank you for reading and carry on ...
 

leov

Well-Known Member
If there is one ... where is it located? Also, given the litmus tests and all the rules and policies that tend to deny happiness and pleasure in life do you really want to go? It's better than hell ... I guess right? I kinda doubt it. Your heaven is more like my hell and my heaven is more like your hell, given what I enjoy and like and find pleasure in and am unashamed of. What about shame? Is there shame in heaven? If not why not?

By the way, after the last few years of constant struggle and judgement, and given the 25 plus years of dedicated discipleship and ministry, and a 19-19 year ordination, I decided to ditch the Christian title altogether. It has been coming on for about four years now, and even though i hold nothing against most adherents to, I'm too damn discouraged and pissed, and angry to continue claiming the title. Thank you for reading and carry on ...
Somewhere in here or beyond...waves sound radiograph light spectrum - Bing images
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Don't know if it's ok to show this in the theological thread. Here is how Buddhism speak of the different realm of existence from hell up to the highest form of heaven (nirvana)

To attain enlightenment and enter into the formless world where one can say there are no human attachments left at all one must first let go of all human attachments to the physical realm of existence. not clinging to anything.
Dm3kdeYXsAIcDbz.jpg
 
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calm

Active Member
If there is one ... where is it located? Also, given the litmus tests and all the rules and policies that tend to deny happiness and pleasure in life do you really want to go? It's better than hell ... I guess right? I kinda doubt it. Your heaven is more like my hell and my heaven is more like your hell, given what I enjoy and like and find pleasure in and am unashamed of. What about shame? Is there shame in heaven? If not why not?

By the way, after the last few years of constant struggle and judgement, and given the 25 plus years of dedicated discipleship and ministry, and a 19-19 year ordination, I decided to ditch the Christian title altogether. It has been coming on for about four years now, and even though i hold nothing against most adherents to, I'm too damn discouraged and pissed, and angry to continue claiming the title. Thank you for reading and carry on ...
Heaven is in God's world, but this world is not in our world.
You have to imagine it this way, the whole universe, where we people live, is a "Programmed Game" and God is our programmer. And just as a human programmer is not in his own programmed game but in his world, so also God is in his own world and this world of God is called heaven in the Bible.

And of course there's no shame in heaven.
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
lets say, like one of the posters suggested, that heaven in in fact a state of mind. Lets also assume that hell is as well. It reminds me of of the monk Samari story ... Lets also pretend that life could be a lot like heaven IF some would let people be who people are when these people don't hurt anyone and would prefer everyone be happy too. Lets also pretend, or rather lets not ... this is pretty much the way it works ... Some are put through so much pressure and hardship, the same people who would prefer everyone be happy too, that life has become a living hell. Now, lets also say that many of these people have lived in a similar hell their entire lives and when happiness came, some got contrary and decided they didn't like it and decided to put them "in their place" ... so to speak. You know, for wanting everyone happy too. A state of mind not easily attained in this day and age.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
If there is one ... where is it located? Also, given the litmus tests and all the rules and policies that tend to deny happiness and pleasure in life do you really want to go? It's better than hell ... I guess right? I kinda doubt it. Your heaven is more like my hell and my heaven is more like your hell, given what I enjoy and like and find pleasure in and am unashamed of. What about shame? Is there shame in heaven? If not why not?
Heaven as an idea make little sense once you start asking yourself questions about it, and even less sense once you start to look at clues from the bible. To me it seems that most people that believe in a heaven have a very vague explanation of what it is suppose to be like. So I will try as best as I can, to at least base it on the bible using verses to support what im saying. And obviously my own personal thoughts about it as well.

So questions or thoughts:

Your first question: "If there is one ... where is it located?"

The bible doesn't say explicitly where it is, but there are some clues to what heaven refers to and where one would expect it to be.

But the short version is that it is out "there" above us, in the skies or above. Remember that they viewed Earth much like flat earthers do today, so obviously there is something above, below and to the left and right of us. But at least the ancient Jews had an excuse for their ignorance, flat earthers not so much. :)

So what clues are there in the bible?

Genesis 22:17
17 I will certainly bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in heaven and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the gates of their enemies.


Here it refers to "stars in heaven" and the only place there would have been stars would have been above them when looking into the sky.

Genesis 28:12
12 when he had a dream! He saw a raised highway that had been built with its ending point on earth and its beginning point in heaven. God's angels were ascending and descending on it.


Genesis 49:25
25 by your father's God, who will continually help you, by the Almighty, who will keep on blessing you with blessings from heaven above, with blessings from the deepest ocean, with blessing from the breast and womb.


Again everything seems to point in the direction that heaven is a "real" place and that it is above Earth.

Deuteronomy 4:36
36 You have been made to hear his voice from heaven so you may be instructed. And he showed you his great fire here on earth, and you heard his voice from the middle of that fire.


Judges 5:20
20 The stars fought from heaven; they fought against Sisera from their orbits.


So again there is a reference that the stars is in or at least very near to heaven.

1 Kings 8:27
27 and yet, will God truly reside on earth? Look! Neither the sky nor the highest heaven can contain you! How much less this Temple that I have built!


Here a distinction is made between sky and highest heaven, which could suggest that heaven or at least the highest heaven is not in the skies but above. (Not sure if there is different layers of heaven.)

Also you have verses talking about the sky as being the gate or a way into heaven, if im not mistaken.

So, at least my best guess based on the bible, is that the ancient Jews saw "space" and the stars as where heaven were located. And most likely all of it were heaven. I don't think they thought of it as being another "dimension" or outside or beyond humans as some might suggest today, now that we have a better understanding of the Universe, but a physical place where God and the angels were.

Second question: "It's better than hell ... I guess right?"
According to the bible, heaven is great :)

However Im not sure most people think of heaven based on what is actually said in the bible, but rather create their own view of it. Maybe because its slightly disappointing in comparison to what they would like it to be, but that is just a complete guess. But none the less, I think it causes a lot of problems, once you start asking questions or just think about it for a few minutes.

1. What do people look like?
My impression is that most think of it as being like they are today, in other words heaven is a personal thing that fits ones own self interest. So people think of family members and love ones as they remember them at the current moment in time, but with little regards to whether those people themselves would like to look like that. For instance ones grandma, probably doesn't prefer to look as you remember them. Which obviously causes some issues in making things fit.

Others, if im not mistaken see people more like spirits entities, souls or something. Which again makes little sense as it doesn't really seem to fit well with the promise of a new Earth as described in the bible.

2. What exactly will there be in heaven? Building? Cars? Entertainment? etc.
Again this seems to follow a personal view, which makes little sense, since we all die at different times, so is heaven or the new Earth filled with what we have to day or do we live like they did for 2000 years ago? Or maybe none, which makes you wonder what on Earth people will spend their time on. As we are talking about an eternity here. So I doubt, most people have really thought about this.

3. The issue of no evil?
This causes a lot of issues as I see it, first of all, if there are no "bad" things in heaven, obviously no one will be able to remember anything from their current life, even people in history which have done bad things, like Hitler for instance, would have to be removed from ones memory, which will cause a chain reaction of memories that need to be removed to avoid people ending up as complete vegetables, with holes in their memories. This obviously then leads to the question, that if we cant remember anything from our current life, then first of all what is the point? and secondly will we even be able to remember those we love, for instance my grand father was in the Danish resistances during WW2, But since war must be considered a bad thing and will eventually lead to Hitler, how exactly is that going to fly?

And the questions goes on, which at least to me, in the end make the whole idea of Heaven a complete joke as nothing fits together with such concept. God or no God and how he wants to solve that, it raises so many questions that people can't answer if they start to think about it, and at the same time have to actually make sure that its consistence with what the bible actually say, rather than just making up stuff.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If there is one ... where is it located? Also, given the litmus tests and all the rules and policies that tend to deny happiness and pleasure in life do you really want to go? It's better than hell ... I guess right? I kinda doubt it. Your heaven is more like my hell and my heaven is more like your hell, given what I enjoy and like and find pleasure in and am unashamed of. What about shame? Is there shame in heaven? If not why not?

By the way, after the last few years of constant struggle and judgement, and given the 25 plus years of dedicated discipleship and ministry, and a 19-19 year ordination, I decided to ditch the Christian title altogether. It has been coming on for about four years now, and even though i hold nothing against most adherents to, I'm too damn discouraged and pissed, and angry to continue claiming the title. Thank you for reading and carry on.

Just for argument's sake....what if the "Christianity" you rail against was never the one that Jesus taught in the first place?

Just like Jesus came to expose the corruption of Judaism in the first century, (at the close of an age back then,) so I believe he is exposing the corruption of Christendom in these "last days" as we approach the end of another age. (Matthew 24:3; 2 Timothy 3:1-5)

This is decision time....but unless you have all the facts, how do you decide?

What is it that you love, that your former religion said you cannot do? Just because you were ordained, does it mean that you were taught the truth?

Have you ever wondered why Jesus chose a (religiously) uneducated group of men as his apostles? The religious schools at which the Pharisees were educated, were not teaching God's word, but promoting a ridiculous interpretation that was given it by the self-righteous leaders.

Judging the messengers as 'uneducated' is what turned many Jews away from listening to Jesus.....but not all. There was hope in Jesus' message and people liked what they heard.

As these last days progress towards their foretold end, the "good news of God's Kingdom" was going to be preached "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before the "end" would come. (Matthew 24:14)

Who are faithfully preaching about this Kingdom and what it will mean for mankind? The educated men of the cloth? Hardly...they are too busy being 'friends of the world' (James 4:4) Or like yourself, are many losing faith in 'Christianity'. Losing faith in Christendom and what it teaches is not the same thing.

If I asked you what the Kingdom of God is....how would you answer? Does the Bible teach that all Christians go to heaven? Is there really a "hell of eternal torment" in the Bible?

What do you think?

What is it that makes you so angry?
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Heaven as an idea make little sense once you start asking yourself questions about it, and even less sense once you start to look at clues from the bible. To me it seems that most people that believe in a heaven have a very vague explanation of what it is suppose to be like. So I will try as best as I can, to at least base it on the bible using verses to support what im saying. And obviously my own personal thoughts about it as well.

So questions or thoughts:

Your first question: "If there is one ... where is it located?"

The bible doesn't say explicitly where it is, but there are some clues to what heaven refers to and where one would expect it to be.

But the short version is that it is out "there" above us, in the skies or above. Remember that they viewed Earth much like flat earthers do today, so obviously there is something above, below and to the left and right of us. But at least the ancient Jews had an excuse for their ignorance, flat earthers not so much. :)

So what clues are there in the bible?

Genesis 22:17
17 I will certainly bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in heaven and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the gates of their enemies.


Here it refers to "stars in heaven" and the only place there would have been stars would have been above them when looking into the sky.

Genesis 28:12
12 when he had a dream! He saw a raised highway that had been built with its ending point on earth and its beginning point in heaven. God's angels were ascending and descending on it.


Genesis 49:25
25 by your father's God, who will continually help you, by the Almighty, who will keep on blessing you with blessings from heaven above, with blessings from the deepest ocean, with blessing from the breast and womb.


Again everything seems to point in the direction that heaven is a "real" place and that it is above Earth.

Deuteronomy 4:36
36 You have been made to hear his voice from heaven so you may be instructed. And he showed you his great fire here on earth, and you heard his voice from the middle of that fire.


Judges 5:20
20 The stars fought from heaven; they fought against Sisera from their orbits.


So again there is a reference that the stars is in or at least very near to heaven.

1 Kings 8:27
27 and yet, will God truly reside on earth? Look! Neither the sky nor the highest heaven can contain you! How much less this Temple that I have built!


Here a distinction is made between sky and highest heaven, which could suggest that heaven or at least the highest heaven is not in the skies but above. (Not sure if there is different layers of heaven.)

Also you have verses talking about the sky as being the gate or a way into heaven, if im not mistaken.

So, at least my best guess based on the bible, is that the ancient Jews saw "space" and the stars as where heaven were located. And most likely all of it were heaven. I don't think they thought of it as being another "dimension" or outside or beyond humans as some might suggest today, now that we have a better understanding of the Universe, but a physical place where God and the angels were.

Second question: "It's better than hell ... I guess right?"
According to the bible, heaven is great :)

However Im not sure most people think of heaven based on what is actually said in the bible, but rather create their own view of it. Maybe because its slightly disappointing in comparison to what they would like it to be, but that is just a complete guess. But none the less, I think it causes a lot of problems, once you start asking questions or just think about it for a few minutes.

1. What do people look like?
My impression is that most think of it as being like they are today, in other words heaven is a personal thing that fits ones own self interest. So people think of family members and love ones as they remember them at the current moment in time, but with little regards to whether those people themselves would like to look like that. For instance ones grandma, probably doesn't prefer to look as you remember them. Which obviously causes some issues in making things fit.

Others, if im not mistaken see people more like spirits entities, souls or something. Which again makes little sense as it doesn't really seem to fit well with the promise of a new Earth as described in the bible.

2. What exactly will there be in heaven? Building? Cars? Entertainment? etc.
Again this seems to follow a personal view, which makes little sense, since we all die at different times, so is heaven or the new Earth filled with what we have to day or do we live like they did for 2000 years ago? Or maybe none, which makes you wonder what on Earth people will spend their time on. As we are talking about an eternity here. So I doubt, most people have really thought about this.

3. The issue of no evil?
This causes a lot of issues as I see it, first of all, if there are no "bad" things in heaven, obviously no one will be able to remember anything from their current life, even people in history which have done bad things, like Hitler for instance, would have to be removed from ones memory, which will cause a chain reaction of memories that need to be removed to avoid people ending up as complete vegetables, with holes in their memories. This obviously then leads to the question, that if we cant remember anything from our current life, then first of all what is the point? and secondly will we even be able to remember those we love, for instance my grand father was in the Danish resistances during WW2, But since war must be considered a bad thing and will eventually lead to Hitler, how exactly is that going to fly?

And the questions goes on, which at least to me, in the end make the whole idea of Heaven a complete joke as nothing fits together with such concept. God or no God and how he wants to solve that, it raises so many questions that people can't answer if they start to think about it, and at the same time have to actually make sure that its consistence with what the bible actually say, rather than just making up stuff.

Thanks for the response. I guess for me heaven is around, above, below and inside ourselves. It's just kinda all around ya know? I think it has always been this way, but with perception and quality of life scewed, it has become difficult to recognize and/or acknowledge that we're already here. So ... What about after we die? Ny guess is we become entirely new creations, not modified versions of ourselves, but entirely new creations with all our wisdom and/or learned life lessons attached to soul when we become living souls again, with a new brain, new body, and clean slate on which to grow, build our lives, and develop ... AGAIN.

It's about the continuation of and quality of life of all on earth and all who will ever be. If the sun goes super nova, then I imagine there are an infinite number of earth's or planets or worlds or places perfect for who we are and what will further help develop and build us into who we are meant to become. Will there be evil to where we go ... I hope so ... it helps us grow, but too much is too much, so I hope quality improves also.


Here, the entire earth is like a grain of sand. Or take a granule of sugar or salt, look at it and pretend that granule of salt or sugar is the entire earth ... throw it on the ground and look around and pretend everything else is the universe. That's how big we are compared to life or the all or all there is, or as some might prefer ... God.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the response. I guess for me heaven is around, above, below and inside ourselves. It's just kinda all around ya know? I think it has always been this way, but with perception and quality of life scewed, it has become difficult to recognize and/or acknowledge that we're already here. So ... What about after we die? Ny guess is we become entirely new creations, not modified versions of ourselves, but entirely new creations with all our wisdom and/or learned life lessons attached to soul when we become living souls again, with a new brain, new body, and clean slate on which to grow, build our lives, and develop ... AGAIN.
Your idea may very well be true, as there is not really any way to disproof it, and maybe little reason for doing so anyway. The only argument, I would hold against your idea is, that I would expect loads of people being able to remember early life experiences and tell about them in such details that no one would doubt it. But at least in my experience, im yet to meet such person. So at least to me ,nothing really seems to speak for it being the case.

It's about the continuation of and quality of life of all on earth and all who will ever be. If the sun goes super nova, then I imagine there are an infinite number of earth's or planets or worlds or places perfect for who we are and what will further help develop and build us into who we are meant to become.
With enough time everything is possible, isn't that what the saying is?

However to me, I think evolution proofs that what you are suggesting is not possible. The amount of variables even for humans to exist now, is so many that to assume that, if the sun were to go supernova that we would just continue or evolve another place, definitely would require God to intervene. Just think about it, if that meteor or whatever it was hadn't hit Earth and killed off the dinosaurs, humans would most likely not have evolved. The mere chance of it hitting Earth, killing them off and giving the mammals the chance to evolve in the exact way they did, could in it self be considered a miracle. But this only apply if one believe that humans are special and divine, if one does not, there is nothing really special about humans, we are just another species lucky enough to make it threw the eye of the needle of things that could instantly kill us. Remember that dinosaurs lived on Earth for much longer time than we have, and already after such a short amount of time, in the process of ruining Earth, we don't even need help from space to do it. :)

Here, the entire earth is like a grain of sand. Or take a granule of sugar or salt, look at it and pretend that granule of salt or sugar is the entire earth ... throw it on the ground and look around and pretend everything else is the universe. That's how big we are compared to life or the all or all there is, or as some might prefer ... God.
Completely agree, Earth is unique in our eyes at least, because we have no where else to go. Are we hit by a meteor that killed off the dinosaurs, we will go probably go extinct as well, and no one in this massive Universe will ever know.

However none of this, still doesn't answer the questions about heaven, God and his purpose, it makes us just as clueless as we ever were. If God exists and doesn't care to explain himself, at least to me, Ill rather turn to my fellow humans for making sense of all and at least make sure that the time we do have on this planet is well spend. Rather than hoping for something, which seems hidden from us with no revelation in sight.

Remember that Jesus told his disciples that some of them would experience this new Earth, which were promised, before they would died... Guess that didn't turn out to well and they must have felt a bit frustrated, I think. :)
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Your idea may very well be true, as there is not really any way to disproof it, and maybe little reason for doing so anyway. The only argument, I would hold against your idea is, that I would expect loads of people being able to remember early life experiences and tell about them in such details that no one would doubt it. But at least in my experience, im yet to meet such person. So at least to me ,nothing really seems to speak for it being the case.


With enough time everything is possible, isn't that what the saying is?

However to me, I think evolution proofs that what you are suggesting is not possible. The amount of variables even for humans to exist now, is so many that to assume that, if the sun were to go supernova that we would just continue or evolve another place, definitely would require God to intervene. Just think about it, if that meteor or whatever it was hadn't hit Earth and killed off the dinosaurs, humans would most likely not have evolved. The mere chance of it hitting Earth, killing them off and giving the mammals the chance to evolve in the exact way they did, could in it self be considered a miracle. But this only apply if one believe that humans are special and divine, if one does not, there is nothing really special about humans, we are just another species lucky enough to make it threw the eye of the needle of things that could instantly kill us. Remember that dinosaurs lived on Earth for much longer time than we have, and already after such a short amount of time, in the process of ruining Earth, we don't even need help from space to do it. :)


Completely agree, Earth is unique in our eyes at least, because we have no where else to go. Are we hit by a meteor that killed off the dinosaurs, we will go probably go extinct as well, and no one in this massive Universe will ever know.

However none of this, still doesn't answer the questions about heaven, God and his purpose, it makes us just as clueless as we ever were. If God exists and doesn't care to explain himself, at least to me, Ill rather turn to my fellow humans for making sense of all and at least make sure that the time we do have on this planet is well spend. Rather than hoping for something, which seems hidden from us with no revelation in sight.

Remember that Jesus told his disciples that some of them would experience this new Earth, which were promised, before they would died... Guess that didn't turn out to well and they must have felt a bit frustrated, I think. :)

Lets pretend that one of your children got lost in the woods that consist of over 5000 acres. Now, you as a parent are concerned so you develop a search party to go search that 5000 acres so you can find your child and net him , err ... rather bring him/her back to safety or under your wing of protection again. So, the earth is by no means lost, but we are one of those little children or rather stars/planets, or whatever you wish to call us who belong to this grand ever expanding and infinite universe. One day, say ... when the sun goes super nova, it might then be possible that we become lost, but like the child lost in that 5000 acres, the universe will one day claim us back, find us, and bring us back under its wing of protection.

At any rate, I don't worry about tomorrow ... as in the next plain of existence, as in life after I die or life after this earth becomes another dead and lifeless planet. Why? I guess because we have life and since the universe has infinite life and life forms and beings and entities and creatures and what not, that we will be given new life again, only not as modified versions of ourselves, but as brand new creations ... somewhere else, or here until our sun goes super nova. Until then, its evolution as usual and adaptation and a lot growing pangs and development for us.

Have a nice day :)
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Heaven is how you vote for God to live with Him in an eternity. The analogy is, you built a large mansion and would invite all your friends and relatives to live in. You have to set the rules for them to live with you, such as they must agree on not to train your kids up to be the criminals or drug dealers. You vote for God to live in His "mansion" by abiding by His rules.

Law is the rules God set forth for the angels, such that they have a choice to make, either to vote for God by observing Law or not for God by breaking it. In the end, 1/3 angels will side with Satan.

When the same Law applied however, no humans can pass. They are all dead when judged by this Law. As a result, humans must judged some other way. God thus established the covenants by the blood of Jesus. That is to say, a justification is needed when humans are to be judged differently from the angels. God made the justification by His own self sacrifice.

Now covenants are the rules God set forth for humans, such that they have a choice to make, either to live in God's "mansion" or not.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
If there is one ... where is it located?

There are science theories of concerning dimensions which can express as other realities. What is the number of possible dimensions ? From a few to infinite. The theory is called MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation) and are serious theory. Science tells the public the MWI allows Unicorns to exist, ditto for Elvis in a spaceship! In fact according to theory if a world or reality or thing can be imagined that thing can or will happen. The reason I mentioned that is because its related to my reply as you will see in a moment. So what about the questions about heaven? Heaven is listed 276 times in the bible.

Because of my belief in God as described in the bible I do not think heaven has temporal address at this time, meaning it's not in the universe that we are familiar with. I believe because of descriptions of heaven in Revelations and the transfiguration of Jesus in Mark, Luke and other scripture indicate heaven is made of transmuted elements that do not exist natural universe. In addition the supernatural versions of Jesus and people mentioned in the bible are not matter based beings. Angels and other messengers are not flesh and blood they are immortal and eternal never decaying, the 2nd law is suspended for them and for the universe after the second coming of Jesus. When Jesus is transfigured the biblical description of the event seems to indicate Jesus is turned into pure energy of an unknown type.

Oops the pizza dude is here and I have a 100 units of insulin ready to launch will answer the rest very soon my fellow member~

*...Reference & Source this is a partial description of the New Jerusalem, it's is a cube 1400 miles in length and width and height that are equal that will be brought to earth as earths capital city. from the web; And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent like glass" (Revelation 21:18-21). Words certainly limited what John could describe, yet it is clear the New Jerusalem will include the most lavish features imaginable, far beyond anything this earth has seen.

: {>
 
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