Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?

Muffled · Oct 21, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
This is not rocket science. It doesn't take volumes of theology. God calls us to obey. "To obey is better than sacrifice." It IS possible to keep all the commandments.

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. Deuteronomy 30:11-14

However, there is a part two. Although God has outlined consequences and warned Israel continually, he is not a God that wants to punish, but to forgive, if we but repent of our sin and turn back to his ways. "Who is a God like unto Thee, that pardoneth the iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He retaineth not His anger for ever, because He delighteth in mercy." Micah 7:18

I believe to enter the Kingdom of God one must not have any sin at all. There is no-one capable of doing that. The only way a person is entirely cleansed of his sin is by the blood of Jesus and that comes symbolically by communion.

Muffled · Oct 21, 2019

Skwim said:
In several places the Bible says the suffering will be forever, but in another place the Bible says a person will be destroyed---apparently unable to suffer from there on.

So, which is it? Do I get to choose?

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I believe it is the body that is destroyed.

Skwim · Oct 21, 2019

Muffled said:
I believe it is the body that is destroyed.

I was always under the impression that Christians, like everyone else, regarded a decayed or incinerated body as having been destroyed, So when the Bible says a person will be destroyed---apparently unable to suffer from there on, obviously it isn't referring the physical body. So I don't understand your point.

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IndigoChild5559 · Oct 21, 2019

Muffled said:
I believe to enter the Kingdom of God one must not have any sin at all. There is no-one capable of doing that. The only way a person is entirely cleansed of his sin is by the blood of Jesus and that comes symbolically by communion.

First of all, it is clear from the Tanakh that God is merciful and forgives if we repent. Are you saying that such who return to God's ways have no share in the world to come? REALLY?????

Secondly, as I showed by my quotation from the Torah, it is certainly possible to live without sin -- God has made it easy (especially if one has been born into the culture.) Of course, the Torah doesn't make temptation as sin the way Christianity does -- THAT would be ridiculous.

Skwim · Oct 21, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
First of all, it is clear from the Tanakh that God is merciful and forgives if we repent.

Curious; what happens to all those who don't know they should repent? OR, are unconvinced they should?

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 21, 2019

Skwim said:
Curious; what happens to all those who don't know they should repent? OR, are unconvinced they should?

I can't think of a single culture on this planet that thinks its okay if they do wrong to continue in doing wrong. There are evil people who never repent, but they ARE aware that they are doing wrong and that they are supposed to change.

Skwim · Oct 21, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
I can't think of a single culture on this planet that thinks its okay if they do wrong to continue in doing wrong.

Perhaps, but what does this have to do with repenting?

re·pent
/rəˈpent/

verb
verb: repent; 3rd person present: repents; past tense: repented; past participle: repented; gerund or present participle: repenting
feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin.

And to repeat; What happens to all those who don't know they should repent? OR, are unconvinced they should? Is it fair to assume god would withhold his mercy and forgiveness, and something horrible would happen to the person?

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IndigoChild5559 · Oct 22, 2019

Skwim said:
Perhaps, but what does this have to do with repenting?

re·pent
/rəˈpent/

verb
verb: repent; 3rd person present: repents; past tense: repented; past participle: repented; gerund or present participle: repenting
feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin.

And to repeat; What happens to all those who don't know they should repent? OR, are unconvinced they should? Is it fair to assume god would withhold his mercy and forgiveness, and something horrible would happen to the person?

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Those are good definitions. Another one is the Merriam Webster:
Repent:
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

This is more along the lines of what I was referring to. You don't have to have the emotions. Just the change of behavior. That's what God is looking for.

kjw47 · Oct 24, 2019

Muffled said:
I believe to enter the Kingdom of God one must not have any sin at all. There is no-one capable of doing that. The only way a person is entirely cleansed of his sin is by the blood of Jesus and that comes symbolically by communion.

acts 3:19--REPENT to get sins blotted out. Repent = the stopping of the doing of serious sin that is unacceptable to Gods view. 1Cor 6:9-11

kjw47 · Oct 24, 2019

Muffled said:
I believe to enter the Kingdom of God one must not have any sin at all. There is no-one capable of doing that. The only way a person is entirely cleansed of his sin is by the blood of Jesus and that comes symbolically by communion.

And when Jesus( after his 1000 year reign as Gods appointed king) He hands back the kingdom to his God and Father( 1Cor 15:24-28) he hands back followers ( second resurrection(sinless) to God and subjects himself. God will accept no less than sinless at that point.

ZenMonkey · Oct 26, 2019

Skwim said:
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EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

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I guess or rather I would think that as we live and grow and develop, we gain a certain type of grace about ourselves, which in turn enables us to be more capable in what we do. Just a guess, but that seems to be the way life operates.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 27, 2019

kjw47 said:
acts 3:19--REPENT to get sins blotted out. Repent = the stopping of the doing of serious sin that is unacceptable to Gods view. 1Cor 6:9-11

It can also mean to begin to do those things which are required of us, such as caring for the poor and oppressed.

e.r.m. · Oct 28, 2019

Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

.

The whole post means nothing. You didn't post a single verse that says works, or you used a version that replaces works for things you have done, as you did in Ephesians 2:9. The LEAST you could have done is post one verse from the Bible that defines works as anything a person does. But there is no such verse, so the whole post is all for naught.

kjw47 · Oct 29, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
It can also mean to begin to do those things which are required of us, such as caring for the poor and oppressed.

The love Jesus speaks of goes not only to family and friends but to ones enemies as well.
And the most important way to care for the poor and oppressed is to make 100% sure they listen to Jesus( his real teachers do) Like this ultra important teaching that helps all who listen and apply--Matthew 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)Matt 6)

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 29, 2019

kjw47 said:
The love Jesus speaks of goes not only to family and friends but to ones enemies as well.
And the most important way to care for the poor and oppressed is to make 100% sure they listen to Jesus( his real teachers do) Like this ultra important teaching that helps all who listen and apply--Matthew 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)Matt 6)

This reasoning, that the most loving thing is to "make sure" that they listen to Jesus, is at the root of the torturous forced conversions. Even today, you have Christians being downright rude, irritating, and presumptuous in their zeal to force others to listen when we clearly don't want to listen.

If we don't want to listen, keep it to yourself. That's how loving your neighbor as yourself works. You don't want a Hindu to missionize you against your will do you? You don't want them to bless the meal in Shiva's name do you? Then stop it!!

kjw47 · Nov 1, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
This reasoning, that the most loving thing is to "make sure" that they listen to Jesus, is at the root of the torturous forced conversions. Even today, you have Christians being downright rude, irritating, and presumptuous in their zeal to force others to listen when we clearly don't want to listen.

If we don't want to listen, keep it to yourself. That's how loving your neighbor as yourself works. You don't want a Hindu to missionize you against your will do you? You don't want them to bless the meal in Shiva's name do you? Then stop it!!

Jesus teaches that not all calling on the Lord will enter Gods kingdom-Matthew 7:21-23)
This is a religious board. Any can speak to another. There are MANY religions. There is one truth. Thus some need help.

Spartan · Nov 3, 2019

Skwim said:
.

EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.

So, which is it, and why?

.

Grace. Here's how grace and works are explained:

"Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works of A Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Another way to illustrate this is to consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus – the one who stated, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Then Jesus responded by saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42-43). It was at this particular moment that the repentant thief received his salvation, and was justified righteous in the eyes of God. This particular moment would also coincide with Genesis 15:6, when Abraham believed God and it was credited (imputed to his account) as righteousness, and would also coincide with what Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Note that there is no evidence that the thief had performed any good works in his life. To the contrary, his works were more of a criminal nature than a Godly nature. That was the very reason he was being crucified. Even as he initially hung from his cross, he heaped insults on the Lord (Mark 15:32). But then the sky darkened, his pain and suffering magnified, and the words Jesus spoke on the cross hit their appointed target, and the thief had a change of heart and believed on the Lord. At that point, the thief received his salvation and justification.

Now, if by some means the thief could have come down from the cross, prior to death, and continued on with his life, then eventually his saving faith would have produced good works (corresponding to Abraham in Genesis 22 and James chapter 2). There is a progression whereby salvation leads to good works. In the eyes of God, Abraham was genuinely justified righteous in Genesis 15:6. Because his faith was genuine, it produced his works in Genesis 22, whereby he was seen as being justified righteous in the eyes of men. James and Paul, though they approach the issue of justification from two different points in time and two different perspectives (the perspective of God and the perspective of man), nevertheless are in total agreement with each other."

The following article goes into much greater detail.

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God

Muffled · Nov 4, 2019

Skwim said:
I was always under the impression that Christians, like everyone else, regarded a decayed or incinerated body as having been destroyed, So when the Bible says a person will be destroyed---apparently unable to suffer from there on, obviously it isn't referring the physical body. So I don't understand your point.

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I believe when the body is destroyed the person is destroyed but the spirit lives on and is able to suffer.

THE Art Vandelay · Nov 8, 2019

No human can earn their salvation. All of us have inherited sinfulness and imperfection which properly results in our death (Romans 5:12). However, it is the undeserved kindness (aka "grace") of God by which we can have the hope of salvation. But that's not to say that a person simply gets to say "I accept Jesus" and that's that. As John 3:16 says, "everyone exercising faith" in Jesus and his ransom sacrifice will have the chance for everlasting life. And yet again, it's not enough for one to claim "Oh yes, I have faith in Jesus" and leave it there. The Bible writer James was inspired to write at James 2:17 that "faith by itself, without works, is dead". So a person must have the necessary works to back up their claim of having faith. What works? They include living a life that regularly adheres to God's moral laws and standards; works of obedience to Jesus' command given to his disciples at Matthew 28:19,20 by which Christians are under obligation to go out and preach to others about the same thing Jesus' preached: God's kingdom. Those are just a few things. The notion of "once saved, always saved" is NOT a scriptural idea nor was it promoted by Christ, his apostles, or any of the first century Christians.

Spartan · Nov 8, 2019

THE Art Vandelay said:
No human can earn their salvation. All of us have inherited sinfulness and imperfection which properly results in our death (Romans 5:12). However, it is the undeserved kindness (aka "grace") of God by which we can have the hope of salvation. But that's not to say that a person simply gets to say "I accept Jesus" and that's that. As John 3:16 says, "everyone exercising faith" in Jesus and his ransom sacrifice will have the chance for everlasting life. And yet again, it's not enough for one to claim "Oh yes, I have faith in Jesus" and leave it there. The Bible writer James was inspired to write at James 2:17 that "faith by itself, without works, is dead". So a person must have the necessary works to back up their claim of having faith. What works? They include living a life that regularly adheres to God's moral laws and standards; works of obedience to Jesus' command given to his disciples at Matthew 28:19,20 by which Christians are under obligation to go out and preach to others about the same thing Jesus' preached: God's kingdom. Those are just a few things. The notion of "once saved, always saved" is NOT a scriptural idea nor was it promoted by Christ, his apostles, or any of the first century Christians.

Works are not a part of the salvation equation (Ephesians 2:8-9). They are a by-product of someone who is already saved.

More on that in the following article:

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God

Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?

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