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There is a Challenge to Christians!

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I think it is correct approach. If we look smaller details, then we get different sub-groups of Christianity. They all can be called Christianity, even if they are not exactly the same. Similarly, as atheists can be called atheists, even if they have different opinions about economy, or different clothes and hairdo.

I think only socialists/communists/Marxists require absolute similarity, that all dress the same way, have all hairs cut and speak the same way and think the same way, as modern “liberals” seem to think and do.

There is a lot of diversity WITHIN Christian sub-groups, though.
Peoples beliefs are commonly heretical, albeit on what some might term 'minor points of difference'.
To be clear, I don't have any issues with that, I think it's completely normal. But many religions would disagree, yet have adherents with variance in their beliefs and practice.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I think it is correct approach.
But we don't even know if that's within the parameters of the challenge stated in the OP.
I think only socialists/communists/Marxists require absolute similarity
If you think Marxist require "absolute similarity," you don't know much about Marxism or how Marxists are often each others own worst enemies because of differences in opinion and how a communist society should function and operate. If you knew much about Marxism you'd realize how funny that actually is to say they require absolute similarity.
that all dress the same way, have all hairs cut and speak the same way and think the same way, as modern “liberals” seem to think and do.
This is going on, where? And you don't think sub-cultures of any social/political/economic, or anything else, basis just tend to have that effect on people? It's called "group behavior" and "conformity." If it didn't happen, we wouldn't see Republicans and Conservatives pretending to be cowboys with their dress.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Any thoughts on mine in #17?


Those are all important questions for which there of course many differing views. But it seems to me that if you do not believe in the divine nature of Jesus (leaving aside the details of what that means!) and his resurrection, then you are not a Christian. You may share its core values, follow the teachings of Christ, etc. (great!) but I would consider that more of a "Christian inspired worldview."
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
OK... ask 10 Christian on this forum

  1. Did Jesus die on the cross for mankind?
  2. Did He resurrect from the dead?
  3. Is He seated at the right hand of the Father?
  4. Is He coming again?
Those questions really don't resemble the ones posed here:
Which brings me to this point: What was Jesus about? What did he do? How was he a friend and are we being friends to him? Heart being far from me, honoring with lips, etc. Also, ask 10 Christians to be specific about their views separately, even those of same denomination ... I'm talking specifics like I'm doing and you'll find yourself with at least ten different views among them.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Those are all important questions for which there of course many differing views. But it seems to me that if you do not believe in the divine nature of Jesus (leaving aside the details of what that means!) and his resurrection, then you are not a Christian. You may share its core values, follow the teachings of Christ, etc. (great!) but I would consider that more of a "Christian inspired worldview."

I completely agree!
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I mean...why those questions, though? They're not the interesting ones (no offence)...these are more challenging in terms of specific belief.

Is Jesus distinct from God?
Do people have the ability to turn to God of their own initiative?
Do you gain Heaven through faith or works?
Does God reward and punish people on this earth based on faith?
Is transubstantiation literally real?
Can holiness reside in physical places/objects?
Describe 'Salvation'.
Because I following Zen Monkey's lead
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Those questions really don't resemble the ones posed here:
He changed the subject... did you fail to mention that when you joined two different quotes making it look like one?
 
Last edited:

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There is a lot of diversity WITHIN Christian sub-groups, though.
Peoples beliefs are commonly heretical, albeit on what some might term 'minor points of difference'.
To be clear, I don't have any issues with that, I think it's completely normal. But many religions would disagree, yet have adherents with variance in their beliefs and practice.
But his statement, along with other people, make the declaration that these are "separate churches because of their variance in beliefs and practice", which basically they are not. And others even say that most of them think that they are "the only church"... and within that category, there are only a few.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
But his statement, along with other people, make the declaration that these are "separate churches because of their variance in beliefs and practice", which basically they are not. And others even say that most of them think that they are "the only church"... and within that category, there are only a few.

It would be an interesting subject for a thread, I think...origins of various Christian beliefs.
I'm less familiar with evangelical structures and origins, and more with traditional European churches, mostly because I read a lot of Classical and Byzantine history (generally) and religion is so intertwined.
However, in that context, at least, you could argue that doctrinal differences did directly lead to schisms.
Considering Muslim beliefs, I think something similar could be said. Even amongst the Jews there were distinct groups with varied doctrinal understandings, although I think (far from an expert) these associations and groupings were a little looser than what we sometimes assume in modern times.

(Actually, that goes for pre-Byzantine Christianity too)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It would be an interesting subject for a thread, I think...origins of various Christian beliefs.
I'm less familiar with evangelical structures and origins, and more with traditional European churches, mostly because I read a lot of Classical and Byzantine history (generally) and religion is so intertwined.
However, in that context, at least, you could argue that doctrinal differences did directly lead to schisms.
Considering Muslim beliefs, I think something similar could be said. Even amongst the Jews there were distinct groups with varied doctrinal understandings, although I think (far from an expert) these associations and groupings were a little looser than what we sometimes assume in modern times.

(Actually, that goes for pre-Byzantine Christianity too)
Yes... at one time it produced schism. I think the advent of the printing press and now the internet has eliminated much of it.

Next year we have a county wide event where Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptists, Assemblies of God, Church of God, Non-denominational and others are all joining together for a major effort, Division is becoming a thing of the past.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes... at one time it produced schism. I think the advent of the printing press and now the internet has eliminated much of it.

Next year we have a county wide event where Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptists, Assemblies of God, Church of God, Non-denominational and others are all joining together for a major effort, Division is becoming a thing of the past.

All you need is a common enemy...!
(Err..I'm not volunteering)
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Is Jesus distinct from God?

Yes, Jesus is distinct from God.
Jesus is not God
Only the Father is God
John 17:1,3

Do people have the ability to turn to God of their own initiative?

Absolutely
Jeremiah 24:7
Ezekiel 18:32
2 Peter 3:9

Do you gain Heaven through faith or works?

You get to heaven with TRUE faith and TRUE works
You won't get to heaven with TRUE faith without works

James 2:20

You won't get to heaven with FAKE faith and FAKE works
You won't get to heaven with NO faith and NO works


Does God reward and punish people on this earth based on faith?

What do you think?

Matthew 5:45 New International Version (NIV)
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Is transubstantiation literally real?

That is Catholic dogma.
Teachings of men

giphy.gif


Can holiness reside in physical places/objects?

A place or an object becomes holy if the God makes them holy
Exodus 29:37
Leviticus 11:44
Psalm 46:4
Ezekiel 39:7
Hebrews 2:11

Describe 'Salvation'.

2 Peter 3 New International Version (NIV)
Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

giphy.gif


Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

giphy.gif


But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, Jesus is distinct from God.
Jesus is not God
Only the Father is God
John 17:1,3



Absolutely
Jeremiah 24:7
Ezekiel 18:32
2 Peter 3:9



You get to heaven with TRUE faith and TRUE works
You won't get to heaven with TRUE faith without works

James 2:20

You won't get to heaven with FAKE faith and FAKE works
You won't get to heaven with NO faith and NO works




What do you think?

Matthew 5:45 New International Version (NIV)
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.



That is Catholic dogma.
Teachings of men

giphy.gif




A place or an object becomes holy if the God makes them holy
Exodus 29:37
Leviticus 11:44
Psalm 46:4
Ezekiel 39:7
Hebrews 2:11



2 Peter 3 New International Version (NIV)
Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

giphy.gif


Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

giphy.gif


But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Hey, I appreciate you answering the questions! To any other Christians looking on, feel free to do the same, even if it's just in your head.
My point here is not to argue which Christian denomination is right...they're just interesting questions, I think.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
View attachment 33877

Ok Christians... they say we are soooo different so I am asking the "specifics" to see how different we are. !0 different answers for 10 different Christians, I am told.

1 Corinthians 11: 19.

New International Version
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

New Living Translation
But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God’s approval will be recognized!

English Standard Version
for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

Berean Study Bible
And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved.

Berean Literal Bible
For also it behooves there to be factions among you, so that also the approved should become evident among you.

New American Standard Bible
For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.

New King James Version
For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

King James Bible
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Christian Standard Bible
Indeed, it is necessary that there be factions among you, so that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

Contemporary English Version
You are bound to argue with each other, but it is easy to see which of you have God's approval.

Good News Translation
No doubt there must be divisions among you so that the ones who are in the right may be clearly seen.)

Holman Christian Standard Bible
There must, indeed, be factions among you, so that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

International Standard Version
Of course, there must be factions among you to show which of you are genuine!

NET Bible
For there must in fact be divisions among you, so that those of you who are approved may be evident.

New Heart English Bible
For there also must be factions among you, that those who are approved may be revealed among you.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
There are going to be contentions among you, that those who are approved among you may be known.

GOD'S WORD Translation

So of all the different factions among the Christian churches, it is up to each individual to discover, which one has been Approved by God.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
View attachment 33877

Ok Christians... they say we are soooo different so I am asking the "specifics" to see how different we are. !0 different answers for 10 different Christians, I am told.
Oh dear, KenS. This is some serious misrepresentation on your part.

And, also, against forum rule 7:

7. Quotations and Citations/References
Plagiarism is illegal. All quotations, whether to posts of other members or to material external to RF, should be properly referenced or cited. When quoting other members, use the forum's quote feature so the person and material you are responding to are easily referenced (see Rules 1 and 3 for additional guidelines regarding quoting other members' posts). When quoting material external to RF, even if it is your own, always provide a citation and limit your quotation to a paragraph or two rather than quoting the entire content (see Rule 4 for additional guidelines).

As Shadow Wolf picked up on, the fact that you failed to follow forum rule 7 was clearly an attempt to avoid people going back and finding the original post, because doing so would expose your argument as a deliberate deception. See, here's the actual post:

Christian Atheism

And here are the specific questions ZenMonkey was asking (emphasis mine):

"Which brings me to this point: What was Jesus about? What did he do? How was he a friend and are we being friends to him? Heart being far from me, honoring with lips, etc. Also, ask 10 Christians to be specific about their views separately, even those of same denomination ... I'm talking specifics like I'm doing and you'll find yourself with at least ten different views among them."

Seems that ZenMonkey meant questions that were far more specific than "Do you agree with these basic tenets of Christianity?".

Why do you have to misrepresent people, Ken?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
View attachment 33877

Ok Christians... they say we are soooo different so I am asking the "specifics" to see how different we are. !0 different answers for 10 different Christians, I am told.


These aren't specific at all.
This is the equivalent of asking random muslims if Mohammed is Allah's prophet and messenger to whom the quran was revealed.

All of them would agree on that, but shiites and sunni's disagree so harshly on more specific things that they are killing eachother in droves over it.

So this attempt of you is, at best, dishonest.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
1 Corinthians 11: 19.

New International Version
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

New Living Translation
But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God’s approval will be recognized!

English Standard Version
for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

Berean Study Bible
And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved.

Berean Literal Bible
For also it behooves there to be factions among you, so that also the approved should become evident among you.

New American Standard Bible
For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.

New King James Version
For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

King James Bible
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Christian Standard Bible
Indeed, it is necessary that there be factions among you, so that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

Contemporary English Version
You are bound to argue with each other, but it is easy to see which of you have God's approval.

Good News Translation
No doubt there must be divisions among you so that the ones who are in the right may be clearly seen.)

Holman Christian Standard Bible
There must, indeed, be factions among you, so that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

International Standard Version
Of course, there must be factions among you to show which of you are genuine!

NET Bible
For there must in fact be divisions among you, so that those of you who are approved may be evident.

New Heart English Bible
For there also must be factions among you, that those who are approved may be revealed among you.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
There are going to be contentions among you, that those who are approved among you may be known.

GOD'S WORD Translation

So of all the different factions among the Christian churches, it is up to each individual to discover, which one has been Approved by God.
And then he said don't do that.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Oh dear, KenS. This is some serious misrepresentation on your part.

And, also, against forum rule 7:

7. Quotations and Citations/References
Plagiarism is illegal. All quotations, whether to posts of other members or to material external to RF, should be properly referenced or cited. When quoting other members, use the forum's quote feature so the person and material you are responding to are easily referenced (see Rules 1 and 3 for additional guidelines regarding quoting other members' posts). When quoting material external to RF, even if it is your own, always provide a citation and limit your quotation to a paragraph or two rather than quoting the entire content (see Rule 4 for additional guidelines).

As Shadow Wolf picked up on, the fact that you failed to follow forum rule 7 was clearly an attempt to avoid people going back and finding the original post, because doing so would expose your argument as a deliberate deception. See, here's the actual post:

Christian Atheism

And here are the specific questions ZenMonkey was asking (emphasis mine):

"Which brings me to this point: What was Jesus about? What did he do? How was he a friend and are we being friends to him? Heart being far from me, honoring with lips, etc. Also, ask 10 Christians to be specific about their views separately, even those of same denomination ... I'm talking specifics like I'm doing and you'll find yourself with at least ten different views among them."

Seems that ZenMonkey meant questions that were far more specific than "Do you agree with these basic tenets of Christianity?".

Why do you have to misrepresent people, Ken?
Cherry picking is a common effort to create a strawman.

Nice try though
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Cherry picking is a common effort to create a strawman.

Nice try though
In what way am I cherry-picking?

You referenced a challenge posted by another forum member, but refused to give any links to the post the challenge was posted in - instead using images. That is a breach of forum rules.

You clearly did so to avoid revealing that ZenMonkey actually did post the kinds of questions they meant - questions which are unlike the questions you're asking in this thread.

I'll ask again: why do you need to misrepresent people?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
In what way am I cherry-picking?

You referenced a challenge posted by another forum member, but refused to give any links to the post the challenge was posted in - instead using images. That is a breach of forum rules.

You clearly did so to avoid revealing that ZenMonkey actually did post the kinds of questions they meant - questions which are unlike the questions you're asking in this thread.

I'll ask again: why do you need to misrepresent people?
I mentioned the location. How else did you find it?
 
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