PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Yeah, as I said, contact Wikipedia.
Don't like your chances - I tried on a number of occasions to have their
entry on when camels were domesticated changed. They kept removing
my entries.
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Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?
- Thread starter Jonathan Bailey
- Start date
Yeah, as I said, contact Wikipedia.
Don't like your chances - I tried on a number of occasions to have their
entry on when camels were domesticated changed. They kept removing
my entries.
sooda
Veteran Member
Wiki doesn't have it wrong.. Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem NOT the Temple.
Camels were domesticated in Arabia.. and only late were used for cargo and the camel saddle didn't exist before the 5th century BC.. There's very little evidence for camels in Palestine until much later. They used donkeys.
rosends
Well-Known Member
the actual quote from the talmud, Megilla 15a does not include the word "prophet"
" אמר רב התך זה דניאל ולמה נקרא שמו התך שחתכוהו מגדולתו"
Rav said, Hatach is Daniel, and why was his named called Hatach? Since he was cut down from his greatness
[The word for cut is Chatach, so Hatach is close enough that Rav makes the connection)
If you want to see the text for yourself, check here http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=1441&size=1
start towards the end of 22 lines up from the beginning of the medium thickness lines.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
The issue with camels is what scientists call "archaeological transparency"
This term was used to describe the discrepancy between the population
accounts of Israel and Edom in the bible - and the actual archaeological
findings.
I get annoyed when people say "There is no evidence..." as if this proves
something didn't exist. I tell my family when they say this, "Remember
the Elephant Bird."
I think the issue with camels is the fact people can't find camel saddles.
We know Egyptians, for instance, used camels before the pyramids
were built. And Egypt was just one of the nations which controlled the
Levant.
Donkeys aren't much use for international trade across parched
landscapes.
sooda
Veteran Member
You sure don't know much about camels.. They were added to the stories much later and of course you have the Demille movies.
Camels were first domesticated for milk, yogurt, meat and hides. The camel saddle was developed about 500 BC and stirrups around 200 AD.
The ancient Egyptians didn't have camels either.
The traders and merchants use donkeys and sailboats and barges.. before camel caravans.
sooda
Veteran Member
@PruePhillip
The problem with Camels is that the ancient Egyptians made rock paintings of all sorts of birds and animals, there are no depictions of camels.
The problem with Camels is that the ancient Egyptians made rock paintings of all sorts of birds and animals, there are no depictions of camels.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Camels were domesticated in Egypt about 5,000 years ago.
Elsewhere as well, no doubt.
Camels were milked - and as people have noted, you wouldn't
try to milk a wild camel.
From the time of the Patriarchs there exists a Syrian cylinder
depicting two men riding camels.
These people perhaps didn't use camel saddles, in much the
same way Nth American Indians didn't use saddles on horses.
I just Googled this and immediately found this
Abraham’s Camels
If you domesticate a camel - you will ride it, sooner rather
than later.
sooda
Veteran Member
You can't ride a camel without a camel saddle..
sooda
Veteran Member
excerpt:
The Bible records the existence of domesticated camels in the patriarchal narratives, but their footprint is actually quite small. They are listed among the very last items in the total wealth of both Abraham (Genesis 12:16) and Jacob (30:43; 32:7,15). They are mentioned as being used for travel by the patriarchs (Genesis 24:10-64; 31:17,34) and by the Midianites (Genesis 37:25). The Egyptians used them for transport as well (Exodus 9:3). Despite their use for transportation, however, the donkey appears as the favored mode of transportation for the patriarchs. In the ancient Near East as a whole, the same might be said during the early second millennium B.C.—the camel was known and domesticated, but not widely used until later.
Free makes an important observation that applies today just as much as it did a half century ago: “Many who have rejected this reference to Abraham’s camels seem to have assumed something which the text does not state. It should be carefully noted that the biblical reference does not necessarily indicate that the camel was common in Egypt at the time, nor does it evidence that the Egyptians had made any great progress in the breeding and domestication of the camel. It merely says that Abraham had camels” (Free, 3:191). Kitchen sums up the matter: “[T]he camel was for long a marginal beast in most of the historic ancient Near East (including Egypt), but it was not wholly unknown or anachronistic before or during 2000-1100” (2003, 339, italics in orig., emp. added).
Those claiming the absence of domesticated camels during the patriarchal age must deny a wealth of evidence to the contrary. Indeed, the evidence is both early and spread over a large geographical area. It includes figurines, models, petroglyphs, burials, seals, and texts. While some of this evidence is relatively recent, some of it has been known for over a century. Critics often claim that believers refuse to consider any evidence that has a bearing on the validity of their faith. It would appear that in the case of Abraham’s camels, the opposite is true.
The Bible records the existence of domesticated camels in the patriarchal narratives, but their footprint is actually quite small. They are listed among the very last items in the total wealth of both Abraham (Genesis 12:16) and Jacob (30:43; 32:7,15). They are mentioned as being used for travel by the patriarchs (Genesis 24:10-64; 31:17,34) and by the Midianites (Genesis 37:25). The Egyptians used them for transport as well (Exodus 9:3). Despite their use for transportation, however, the donkey appears as the favored mode of transportation for the patriarchs. In the ancient Near East as a whole, the same might be said during the early second millennium B.C.—the camel was known and domesticated, but not widely used until later.
Free makes an important observation that applies today just as much as it did a half century ago: “Many who have rejected this reference to Abraham’s camels seem to have assumed something which the text does not state. It should be carefully noted that the biblical reference does not necessarily indicate that the camel was common in Egypt at the time, nor does it evidence that the Egyptians had made any great progress in the breeding and domestication of the camel. It merely says that Abraham had camels” (Free, 3:191). Kitchen sums up the matter: “[T]he camel was for long a marginal beast in most of the historic ancient Near East (including Egypt), but it was not wholly unknown or anachronistic before or during 2000-1100” (2003, 339, italics in orig., emp. added).
Those claiming the absence of domesticated camels during the patriarchal age must deny a wealth of evidence to the contrary. Indeed, the evidence is both early and spread over a large geographical area. It includes figurines, models, petroglyphs, burials, seals, and texts. While some of this evidence is relatively recent, some of it has been known for over a century. Critics often claim that believers refuse to consider any evidence that has a bearing on the validity of their faith. It would appear that in the case of Abraham’s camels, the opposite is true.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
So, you have this amazing beast of burden, capable of traversing the
hot and barren hinterlands. And no-one thinks to get on it and ride it?
You load the camel with goods, and no-one thinks to climb on top?
The image of two men riding camels (ca 1800 BC) might have been
wishful thinking on the part of the artist?
An Afghan camel harness ca 2200 BC planted on an archeological
dig?
The Big Issue with camel dating is the bible. It's become this tool
to bash religion, IMO.
sooda
Veteran Member
You ever been around camels or ridden a camel? They are a royal pain. They smell horrible, they're mean and they spit.
sooda
Veteran Member
Camel harness?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
You didn't read the link
Numerous discoveries of figurines depicting domesticated camels have been found from a wide
range of locations in the ancient world. From the territory of Bactria-Margiana near present-day
northern Afghanistan (late 3rd to early 2nd millennium) comes a copper alloy figurine of a camel
equipped with a harness, now housed in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Terracotta models of
camel-drawn carts (dating as early as c. 2200 B.C.) have been discovered at the city of Altyn-
Depe in present-day Turkmenistan (Kirtcho, 2009,