Who would want to be such a control freak?

Hatchski,

A different take an the same basic subject:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5374

i was actually gonna post a thread on something like this. if a god is all knowing, it would know the outcome of every single human beings life and whether or not each individual will go to heaven or hell(asuming that there is a heaven and hell). of course the god would be all knowing because it's supposed to be perfect, right? but of course, if this god is all knowing, it would know every action it would ever make in all eternity. that would make it so that this god would have no free will. but isn't god supposed to perfect? this would mean that god cant be all knowing without losing it's free will, thus proving that god cant be perfect, nor can anything else in the universe.

God is in the world for the dilemma you raise. I interprit that, Kitchma, because it's a feeling you have that such a God should not trust your decisions for your own self. He feels that for you progressing in your Life the world's decisive actions are already of supreme importance in your human duty (the lambs looking for the sheppard; the wolves are what you fear as existing for an uncanny nature of their own). Your nature is unavaiable to MAN, but to God begs you about to find out for him instead of HIm. So you want to put your trust in God. Only he can ultimately judge the nature of your conduct.
You say He has already judged, but because of his being in the World; that judgment is mutable; God can do everything including making himself different again for the World.

Hatchski said:

Here is the question I can't get answered.
If there is a god who is all knowing, wouldn't he already know which people are going to hell. Christians say God gives us choice, but wouldn't god already know the choices we were going to make. If this is true, this means god willingly created people who he knew he would later cast into hell for an endless eternity of pain and suffering. If the christian/islamic/jewish god really exists, and is all he says they are, he must be really sick. He creates souls just to throw them into hell.

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This assumes that:

1. Christianity is true;
2. Predestination is true;
3. Hell is eternal.

I have no problem with 1, but 2 and 3 I question.

NetDoc said:

The REAL "Control Freak" is Satan. He has enslaved the entire world. That's why we often fail to do what we know is right. It's also why there is so much hate in the world. Satan makes us do what we know to be wrong. What's more, he has placed the blame (in our minds) squarely on the one who is NOT responsible for this mess. He has obfuscated the truth and sold us Hate at a wholesale rate.

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Why would god allow Satan to exist, being the master of the universe. I mean, why does god allow temptation? Does he have to? Why doesn't god just get rid of Satan all together. If god can't, becuase satan is too powerful, whats to say that (and I know this sounds horrible, but its hypothetical) satan is the real good guy, and god is just tricking us. If there is an equilibriam between god and satan, who is to say who is right. If God is stronger, why does he not destroy evil? I know christians can't answe this, but that is one reason I'm an atheist. You can't answer any questions with Christianity without stepping out with total blind faith. There is no assurance. I can have all the faith in the universe that the world will end tomorrow, but it won't happen. You see where I'm coming from?

There is the La Place's demon which in the 18th century commited the universe to determinism. You are to my understanding of deism hypostatizing the treachery of deceipt in "God" as the bad faith reality of worship. My view is the indetermistic view that God is mutable for hell as my bad faith mutable for heaven. Now the demon itself can become a figment of my imagination, but mutability never.
This is a hopeful view. The existentialist atheist view is the hopeless view.
That view makes God irrelevant to the forms of mutability. Who can complain.

Why would God allow Satan to exist.

One cannot understand the light unless they understand the darkness. Good and evil, love and hate, hot and cold, etc and anti etc.

I mean, why does god allow temptation? Does he have to?

God allows complete free choice. This is the only way for LOVE to exist.

Why doesn't god just get rid of Satan all together.

Satan's time is coming. He has already been defeated and is enraged.

If god can't, becuase satan is too powerful, whats to say that (and I know this sounds horrible, but its hypothetical) satan is the real good guy, and god is just tricking us. If there is an equilibriam between god and satan, who is to say who is right. If God is stronger, why does he not destroy evil?

Satan's complete power over man ended at the cross. God provided a way to redeem us to him. Do not count God's patience as a lack of power. The only way to God is to choose him over evil.

I know christians can't answe this, but that is one reason I'm an atheist.

Great news! I answered these for you so you can stop being an athiest!

You can't answer any questions with Christianity without stepping out with total blind faith. There is no assurance. I can have all the faith in the universe that the world will end tomorrow, but it won't happen. You see where I'm coming from?

My faith is anything but "blind". I see God and his works every day. I only wish that my faith were "total". As it is, it's not even the size of a mustard seed, and God still allows me to move spiritual mountains. God does not allow us to know the time or the season of his coming... only that he is coming to redeem those who seek after love, truth and justice. If you seek after these, sooner or later you will find God.

Hatchski said:

Here is the question I can't get answered.
If there is a god who is all knowing, wouldn't he already know which people are going to hell.

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If you want a good explination read John Calvin and the doctrine of Predestination. But here is my answer to this question (it is a good one and I commend you for asking good questions, keep at it and I'll make you into a christian one of these days) God gives you a clear choice in your life. God already knowns the choices your going to make. However you must remeber that God is GOD. God knows but he isn't going to tell you straight out if your going to hell or not. Only God knows the answer, It isn't your or my place to give an answer if your going to hell or not. Besides the term hell is a bit misleading in this postmodern world. I suggest you get a good understanding of what hell really is.

well... lets see... My faith has no hell to go to. We have no 'satan' figure either. Creator doesn't meddle in our lives, though he will aid us if we truely wish it. (though almost never the way we think he will)

again I think the post paints with a broad brush when it comes to religion. There are more flavors of religion than thier are Ben & Jerrys ice cream.

wa:do

Hatchski said:

Why would god allow Satan to exist, being the master of the universe. I mean, why does god allow temptation? Does he have to? Why doesn't god just get rid of Satan all together. If god can't, becuase satan is too powerful, whats to say that (and I know this sounds horrible, but its hypothetical) satan is the real good guy, and god is just tricking us. If there is an equilibriam between god and satan, who is to say who is right. If God is stronger, why does he not destroy evil? I know christians can't answe this, but that is one reason I'm an atheist. You can't answer any questions with Christianity without stepping out with total blind faith. There is no assurance. I can have all the faith in the universe that the world will end tomorrow, but it won't happen. You see where I'm coming from?

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Hatchski i've already discussed this to no end on several other threads but i'll break it down one more time.
The concept of "Satan" is a christian concept, much of which has been molded by things like Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost. In Judaism we have what is known as The satan. It's a job that was assigned to one of the ministering angels. His job is to tempt and test man, not in an effort do destroy or damn man but in order to make us better people. He is the millstone that we are ground upon to make us better people. He wants us to succeed. In this way we can become closer to the Divine. It is also said when The satan is taken away the world will weep and mourn because we will never be able to get any closer to G-d than we are at that point.

I agree with Jewscout here. The way I see it, why focus so much on whether God knows if I am going to hell or not? I still have a choice. If I decide against God and wind up in hell, well, it is still my fault. If I decide to believe in God, and wind up in heaven, then, again, it is still my 'fault.' A very interesting book on the topic of heaven, hell, and purgatory is C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce." It's a novel, but the way he portrays life after death is fascinating.

Hatchski said:

Here is the question I can't get answered.
If there is a god who is all knowing, wouldn't he already know which people are going to hell. Christians say God gives us choice, but wouldn't god already know the choices we were going to make. If this is true, this means god willingly created people who he knew he would later cast into hell for an endless eternity of pain and suffering. If the christian/islamic/jewish god really exists, and is all he says they are, he must be really sick. He creates souls just to throw them into hell.

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To me, God can t be sick! Hum... :sarcastic I can t say for sure wether free will does or does not exist, but I can t believe some would be made to do evil... or to do whatever... what happens in your life does not depend on you, how you deal with it does depend on you, I think. well... It s kind of complicated, right?! Anyways, I don t believe in hell as such. I don t believe it s that simple. I believe you create your own hell when you re evil... like whatever you do has consequences in this life or the next... I believe one just gets what they give... so "hell" would be different depending on the acts and motivations of the person real justice, like.
cheers
dawny