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Good and Evil

ZenMonkey

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
nPeace said:
This is like asking, 'What's tall. What's short?' 'What's fat. What's thin?' 'What's 3 inches. What's 3 feet?'
I think everything has a standard of measure, usually set by someone.
The world has it's standard... or rather standards - since they vary from culture to culture.
The Bible seems to have a set standard, yet many read it and arrive at differences. I don't think this invalidates there being one standard, one measuring rod. I just think right now there is a thick cloud in the world.
Once that is removed, everyone will get to see clearly, how to measure accurately.
I think then, they will know who set the standard of good and evil.
Click to expand...


I like that ... Say I'm 3' 2 " and another next to me is 4' 2" and the guy next to the one next to me is 7'8" .. Either way I'm small compared to both and the 7'8" guy is big compared to both, but the 4'2" is big compared to me, so yeah ... I see what you're saying. It's relative to each individual. I like peach milkshakes. To me they are the best. The other guy likes chocolate. To him they are the best. It's relative and both views true and false.
 
ZenMonkey

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Deeje said:
If I may take your points here one at a time.....
"On the first point I might disagree ... depending on "social order"....
"Social order" operates largely on the Law of the Land, which is different in many nations. But for Christians (who have no nationality from God's standpoint) we are arecommanded to 'obey the ruling authorities' (Romans 13:1) in whatever nation we reside, because God has allowed them to exist for the benefit of his worshippers.....otherwise there would be chaos and none of the things commanded by Christ could be accomplished.....like meeting for Christian worship or engaging in the preaching of the Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20; Hebrews 10:23-25)

The second point...."destroys relationships"...yes "it takes two to tango", but even in relationships were just one is implementing Christian principles, there can be peace. If a relationship is poisoned by one of the parties being unconcerned for the welfare of the other, and there is an option to separate, then that is a good option to choose.

"On the third point I might disagree again (sows discord and harms people)....."Sometimes it's good to protest "

There is peaceful protest and there is violent protest. Making your voice heard should not ever mean resorting to the destruction of life and property. What does it accomplish in the face of what comes after?

"People have the right to defend themselves, even when it entails harming others or rather the aggressors who threaten harm on us."

This is not what Jesus taught, especially on a national scale. There is some leeway for personal self defense, but never with the intention to do harm. Loving our enemies does not entail doing them harm, even if they harm us. (Matthew 5:43-45) We are to pray for them, not join them in their violence. How does that make us better than them?

Since national violence is political, Christians are told that they cannot be "part of the world" (John 17:15-16) and that includes its political wars and divisions. We saw the folly of this in the two world wars of last century, where "Christians" on both sides of a political conflict slaughtered one another. True Christians cannot take up weapons to do harm to their fellow man for any reason.

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things." (2 Corinthians 10:3-4)

"Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good." (Romans 12:17-21)
Click to expand...


Ok, laws of the land ... like physics is what I assume is meant. How can a Christian possible obey the laws of the land and remain peaceful and be obedient to their faith in warzones and what not, which takes me to your last point. Jesus told us to buy swords. I'll assume it wasn't for show and tell. As for relationships ... Peaceful and happy are two very different things.
 
ZenMonkey

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
blü 2 said:
Good means bringing benefit, gain, to you, you and your family, you and your group, region, nation &c. Bad means bringing detriment, loss, to those people (who will, of course, vary with context).

We (everyone, in all cultures) are born with certain moral instincts: as well as the general mammalian imperatives of child nurture and protection, we dislike the person who harms, we like fairness and reciprocity, we like group loyalty and respect for authority and we get a sense of self-worth/virtue from self-denial.

The rest of our morality is more variable. We get it from our upbringing, culture, education and experience. This covers manners (things people are judged on in society ─ dress, vocabulary, accent, table manners &c), weddings (is there a dowry, a brideprice, neither, who should get a gift &c?), funerals, the etiquette of competition (sportsmanship, are Americans by tendency braggarts or just honest?) and so on through a great number of social interactions.
Click to expand...


I agree with what you stated mostly, but there are larger, err... I mean greater applications which are more individual. Some champion selflessness, but not me ... Some derive a sense of self worth? That's kinda crazy how that works isn't it? Self worth through selflessness or denying self to gain self worth doesn't make much sense. It's a bit of an oxymoron isn't it, the irony in that wreaks of insecurity, which is the exact opposite of self worth.
 
ZenMonkey

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Fool said:
only love is good.



Click to expand...


Then it's all love cause in my view it's all good ... even the nasty bits we sometimes hate. If nothing else, the rage and upheaval that motivates change, that demands change, the outrage we feel at the evils and hurt that leads us to stand and do something about them. It could definitely be better, more perfect, more pleasing, and ever increasingly so, but we gotta get past a certain point before we walk into that type of reality.
 
Fool

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
ZenMonkey said:
Then it's all love cause in my view it's all good ... even the nasty bits we sometimes hate. If nothing else, the rage and upheaval that motivates change, that demands change, the outrage we feel at the evils and hurt that leads us to stand and do something about them. It could definitely be better, more perfect, more pleasing, and ever increasingly so, but we gotta get past a certain point before we walk into that type of reality.
Click to expand...



there are two types of love.


love as self and love of other as self. some do not mature to love of other as self. these are known as hypocrites. love of self is only healthy and exclusive as the absolute. hatred doesn't lead to a positive. it leads to chaos and confusion either to self, or other as self.
 
Segev Moran

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
ZenMonkey said:
Ok, so much talk and discussion and disagreement and not too much unity of mind on this subject to date ... err ... at least from what I've experienced in life thus far. What constitutes good and what constitutes evil and why? Easy question which should have an easy answer, but then ... that isn't always the case so ... Lets dance.
Click to expand...
There is a simple answer!
Before doing something, think what would happen if everybody did the same.
Than try to asses how long the human specie can prosper in that situation.
You need to consider the action without any filters.

For example, if you say, Lets kills the weak people, examine the result of everyone killing (without the filter).
Obviously the result will end humanity quite fast, so we can easily determine its good to kill someone (yes! even if there is a good reason to do so)

The complexity begins when we add the filters. Oh.. its good to kill someone if he is an enemy.
No, it is not good even if at times there is no choice (as we are very young social specie).
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
ZenMonkey said:
I like that ... Say I'm 3' 2 " and another next to me is 4' 2" and the guy next to the one next to me is 7'8" .. Either way I'm small compared to both and the 7'8" guy is big compared to both, but the 4'2" is big compared to me, so yeah ... I see what you're saying. It's relative to each individual. I like peach milkshakes. To me they are the best. The other guy likes chocolate. To him they are the best. It's relative and both views true and false.
Click to expand...
Sorry. You obviously got the wrong measurement here. :D
But it does highlight one reason why we need one set standard for everything - we think differently.

I wasn't saying what you were thinking. I was saying, there is a standard of measurement for everything. Let me explain.
Suppose the word fat was never coined, or slim, for that matter. Would we consider something to be fat, or slim? Likely not. We would know they are differences, but how would we describe those differences?
What if there was no metric system, or no measuring tape, or ruler, or system of measuring, we could not know what is three inches, or three feet.
Someone set these standards.

Same with good and evil. If there is no set standard of good and evil, how would we determine what is good and evil, because everyone thinks differently, and have a different conscience... if any. :(

I think the moral standards are already set, the same way the laws of the universe have been set, but I think there is a mass of confusion that prevents people from adopting those standards.

It's comparable to a compass in a field of magnets.
Would the compass read accurately?
Hope you understand.
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
ZenMonkey said:
Cool ... here's the thing. I hate some things . That a truth I won't deny. I truly enjoy other things. That's another truth I won't deny. Have you ever hated something that happened to you? Anything really ... just something you hated that happened to you, or maybe your family?
Click to expand...


Hate can be an emotional reaction. On the other hand, one should always lead with their reason half. Taking a few steps back to analyze the reasons for hate along with the results of hate, one will see hate hurts everyone.

Isn't it better working on steps that will bring the best results?

There are many times I have seen people get angry and hateful until they cooled off allowing their reason half to take the lead again. They usually come back regretting their emotional outburst. This is no big deal. It's just a lesson to learn. It has always been better to Think then Act than to simply react. It can take discipline. however working toward that goal moves one forward.

It's been a long time, however in my young days, I experienced hate in some form. Hate is really not a part of my life now. It is no longer a viable choice.

Just as Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other, I tend to try fix the problem rather than return any hate given to me.

As for adversity that knocks on my door, I tend to try and see how it changes myself and others around me. I will walk ever forward bringing those around me.

Everyone has the Power to Choose how they value things. If one no longer values the petty things like judging, blaming,punishing, hating,revenge or payback, controlling, intimidating, coercing, selfishness and etc, that so many people hold so dear, it leaves the door open for all the Love, Kindness, and Goodness that does exist around us all.

I know many many people feel like victims in some way, however we all can Choose how we create so much of our lives. As I see it, since our actions return to teach us what our actions really mean, it becomes important to Think then Act rather than simply react. Still, we will learn, in time, regardless. On the other hand, one should not be their worst enemy.
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
ZenMonkey said:
Ok, laws of the land ... like physics is what I assume is meant. How can a Christian possible obey the laws of the land and remain peaceful and be obedient to their faith in warzones and what not
Click to expand...

Again let me go to the Bible....Christians can certainly obey the laws of the land but they are relative to God's laws.

Acts 5:27-29...when the apostles were arrested for defying the order not to preach Jesus Christ...
"So they brought them and stood them before the Sanʹhe·drin. Then the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men."

So obeying the laws of the land can be done as long as they do not conflict with God's laws. In warzones Christians are to take a neutral position. In the first century when Israel was under Roman domination, nowhere will you find Jesus advocating that his disciples join in the Jewish revolt that was pending at the time. Masada was not a place for Christians. What an horrendous outcome!
Masada—Why Did It Happen? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

which takes me to your last point. Jesus told us to buy swords. I'll assume it wasn't for show and tell.
Click to expand...

Read the account and see that he told his apostles only on that occasion to buy swords....and only two swords were purchased; Jesus said "it is enough". An armed mob approached to arrest Jesus, so two swords would have been nigh on to useless. So why did he tell his apostles to buy them? When Peter used one, Jesus reprimanded him. They were to demonstrate that although armed, they would not resort to violence, even to protect the son of God.

Jesus never told "us" to buy swords....or weapons of any sort. Paul's words confirm that we are not to use 'carnal weapons' and to "return evil for evil to no one". We are to "conquer evil with good."

Matthew 26:52-54....after Peter took off the slave's ear....
"Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels? 54 In that case, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must take place this way?”

Substitute the word "gun" for "sword" and you will see exactly what Jesus meant. There can be no justification for bloodshed. No excuse for taking vengeance as the scriptures said. If you justify actions that God condemns, how can you stand before him as an obedient servant?

It was prophesied in Isaiah 53:7 ....
"He was oppressed and he let himself be afflicted,
But he would not open his mouth.
He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter,
Like a ewe that is silent before its shearers,
And he would not open his mouth."

Jesus did not try to evade arrest or to resist in any way. His apostles also, when they were arrested did not resist. And even on the occasion when a strong earthquake sprang open the doors of the jail, they did not try to flee.
The Jailer was going to commit suicide because he imagined that all his prisoners would have escaped, but he and his whole family became believers because of the exemplary conduct of these men.

No political conflict can draw a Christian in if they are true followers of Christ. You cannot love your enemies with a gun...a tank....or a bomb.

As for relationships....Peaceful and happy are two very different things.
Click to expand...

A person can only be truly peaceful and happy if they are obedient to God in all things....not just the in things that are convenient.
 
ZenMonkey

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Fool said:
there are two types of love.


love as self and love of other as self. some do not mature to love of other as self. these are known as hypocrites. love of self is only healthy and exclusive as the absolute. hatred doesn't lead to a positive. it leads to chaos and confusion either to self, or other as self.
Click to expand...

I try not to hate people, but sometimes I get to the point where I kinda do. Define love again. You're definition has no substance and would be relative and subjective to each individual.
 
ZenMonkey

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
stvdv said:
Yes I agree, that falls under "Hurt Never"


You did this? Some do this, and with proper technique they don't get hurt "stepping on hot coals". I experiment a lot, not this one yet.
Click to expand...

I'm sure, but the gist is for some stepping on hot coals hurts and it is an evil to them. Look the definition for calamity aka "evil" ... It boild down to being **** we don't like or enjoy and yes ... we hate it. I can say we too.
 
ZenMonkey

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Segev Moran said:
There is a simple answer!
Before doing something, think what would happen if everybody did the same.
Than try to asses how long the human specie can prosper in that situation.
You need to consider the action without any filters.

For example, if you say, Lets kills the weak people, examine the result of everyone killing (without the filter).
Obviously the result will end humanity quite fast, so we can easily determine its good to kill someone (yes! even if there is a good reason to do so)

The complexity begins when we add the filters. Oh.. its good to kill someone if he is an enemy.
No, it is not good even if at times there is no choice (as we are very young social specie).
Click to expand...


Ummm ... ok .... Ummm .... How about you worry about you and yours and I'll wory about me and mine and we'll probably get along just fine ya know?
 
ZenMonkey

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
nPeace said:
Sorry. You obviously got the wrong measurement here. :D
But it does highlight one reason why we need one set standard for everything - we think differently.

I wasn't saying what you were thinking. I was saying, there is a standard of measurement for everything. Let me explain.
Suppose the word fat was never coined, or slim, for that matter. Would we consider something to be fat, or slim? Likely not. We would know they are differences, but how would we describe those differences?
What if there was no metric system, or no measuring tape, or ruler, or system of measuring, we could not know what is three inches, or three feet.
Someone set these standards.

Same with good and evil. If there is no set standard of good and evil, how would we determine what is good and evil, because everyone thinks differently, and have a different conscience... if any. :(

I think the moral standards are already set, the same way the laws of the universe have been set, but I think there is a mass of confusion that prevents people from adopting those standards.

It's comparable to a compass in a field of magnets.
Would the compass read accurately?
Hope you understand.
Click to expand...

I think you understand my position nicely.
 
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