"United States should 'cease expressing irresponsible opinions'"

Stevicus · Oct 25, 2019

Beijing slam Mike Pence for his 'arrogance' after he backed Hong Kong pro-democracy protesters | Daily Mail Online

Beijing has slammed US Vice President Mike Pence for his 'arrogance and hypocrisy' after he voiced support for Hong Kong's pro-democracy protesters.

Pence said he 'stood with' Hong Kong pro-democracy supporters and accused the NBA of 'siding with the Chinese Communist Party and silencing free speech'.

He went on to say that the NBA was 'acting like a wholly owned subsidiary of the authoritarian regime'.

Foreign ministry spokesman Hua Chunying said at a regular press briefing that the United States should 'cease expressing irresponsible opinions'.

The Chinese government isn't happy with Mike Pence's comments on the NBA, Nike, and China.

Pence rebuked Nike and the NBA for 'siding with the Chinese Communist Party and silencing free speech' over a tweet by Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey earlier this month that voiced support for demonstrations in Hong Kong.

China, a major basketball market, retaliated by ending sponsorships and cancelling broadcasts of two pre-season games held in the country.

Pence singled out the shoe company for removing Houston Rockets merchandise from stores in China after the team's general manager angered the Chinese government with a tweet supporting protesters in Hong Kong.

Hua hit out at the US for losing 'all trace of morality and trustworthiness' and urged the US to 'cease actions that harm the relations and mutual trust between the two countries'.

I wonder why they would be so surprised that US politicians are supporting the protesters. It's not like there's been that much "mutual trust" between the US and China - not really.

It's certainly not like it was during the Cold War, but US politicians would still be compelled to support protesters in China. If they like, the Chinese government is perfectly free to voice support for protesters in the US.

But as far as the US "ceasing to express irresponsible opinions," the US is like a person, who, if you tell him to shut up, he'll just keep talking more.

PruePhillip · Oct 25, 2019

Stevicus said:
Beijing slam Mike Pence for his 'arrogance' after he backed Hong Kong pro-democracy protesters | Daily Mail Online

The Chinese government isn't happy with Mike Pence's comments on the NBA, Nike, and China.

I wonder why they would be so surprised that US politicians are supporting the protesters. It's not like there's been that much "mutual trust" between the US and China - not really.

It's certainly not like it was during the Cold War, but US politicians would still be compelled to support protesters in China. If they like, the Chinese government is perfectly free to voice support for protesters in the US.

But as far as the US "ceasing to express irresponsible opinions," the US is like a person, who, if you tell him to shut up, he'll just keep talking more.

This is what happens.
America (or in this case, some American official) expresses an opinion about a rather odious country.
America is condemned for its arrogance.

But then America says nothing about this odious nation.
And America is condemned for "not speaking out."

Twilight Hue · Oct 25, 2019

Stevicus said:
Beijing slam Mike Pence for his 'arrogance' after he backed Hong Kong pro-democracy protesters | Daily Mail Online

The Chinese government isn't happy with Mike Pence's comments on the NBA, Nike, and China.

I wonder why they would be so surprised that US politicians are supporting the protesters. It's not like there's been that much "mutual trust" between the US and China - not really.

It's certainly not like it was during the Cold War, but US politicians would still be compelled to support protesters in China. If they like, the Chinese government is perfectly free to voice support for protesters in the US.

But as far as the US "ceasing to express irresponsible opinions," the US is like a person, who, if you tell him to shut up, he'll just keep talking more.

China is a totalitarian Society. He shouldn't have just spoke out , he should have crucified China to the cross.

The egregiously violated the provisions made when do United Kingdom handed Hong Kong over to the Chinese government.

Howard Is · Oct 25, 2019

PruePhillip said:
This is what happens.
America (or in this case, some American official) expresses an opinion about a rather odious country.
America is condemned for its arrogance.

But then America says nothing about this odious nation.
And America is condemned for "not speaking out."

That is true. I have been guilty of it too.
We all wish we had a big brother we could rely on.
Some want him to be Clint Eastwood, or John Wayne.
Some prefer Rambo, or Batman.
Lately it’s Vin Diesel in a weaponised muscle car.
It’s hard to get the truth through our heads...we are living in chaos, and our political systems fail because of the belief that our leaders are wise, courageous and true, and up to the task, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Humans evolved to live in small bands.
Our emotional response is still geared to relying on the silverback to maintain order.
Moths will never understand that a candle is not the moon.
In fact, they never even had a clue about the moon.

PruePhillip · Oct 25, 2019

Howard Is said:
That is true. I have been guilty of it too.
We all wish we had a big brother we could rely on.
Some want him to be Clint Eastwood, or John Wayne.
Some prefer Rambo, or Batman.
Lately it’s Vin Diesel in a weaponised muscle car.
It’s hard to get the truth through our heads...we are living in chaos, and our political systems fail because of the belief that our leaders are wise, courageous and true, and up to the task, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Humans evolved to live in small bands.
Our emotional response is still geared to relying on the silverback to maintain order.
Moths will never understand that a candle is not the moon.
In fact, they never even had a clue about the moon.

We need a big brother (BB), nation wise.
Had America been the Big Brother in Europe in 1900 there would not have
been the two world wars.
Being BB after WWII put the brakes on the Soviet expansion.
Being BB in Asia has led to what some call the "virtuous cycle" of young
Koreans, Japanese etc growing up under American influence, American
markets, American support etc.. These kids don't share the animosities
of the past towards each other.
And being BB has slowed the expansion of nuclear states due to the
US "nuclear umbrella."

I can tell you - a new American isolationism will be regretted.

Howard Is · Oct 25, 2019

PruePhillip said:
We need a big brother (BB), nation wise.
Had America been the Big Brother in Europe in 1900 there would not have
been the two world wars.
Being BB after WWII put the brakes on the Soviet expansion.
Being BB in Asia has led to what some call the "virtuous cycle" of young
Koreans, Japanese etc growing up under American influence, American
markets, American support etc.. These kids don't share the animosities
of the past towards each other.
And being BB has slowed the expansion of nuclear states due to the
US "nuclear umbrella."

I can tell you - a new American isolationism will be regretted.

The United Nations was probably the best idea for a Big Brother.
But it has been rendered toothless and irrelevant.
It always appeared to me ( I’m Australian) that Americans considered the UN a roadblock to ‘manifest destiny’. Also I think it smelled of ‘global socialism’ , or One World Government, or some other kind of brake on American Liberty.

The US population has always had a split personality that way. Which was kind of hard to avoid really.

As things stand, it looks to me like the elites and their corporations are calling the shots.
That’s why the Cold War ended and China went capitalist....The 20th century was like a global Milgram and Zimbardo experiment. The elites wanted to know if classical or operant conditioning produced the most efficient workforce.

When the data came in, operant conditioning was the clear winner, so we had glasnost and perestroika, negotiated by the two former heads of intelligence (KGB and CIA) and subsequently presidents of the USSRA, Gorbachev and Bush.

Politics is a global fraud.

I have no suggestions about what to do about that.

PruePhillip · Oct 25, 2019

Howard Is said:
The United Nations was probably the best idea for a Big Brother.
But it has been rendered toothless and irrelevant.
It always appeared to me ( I’m Australian) that Americans considered the UN a roadblock to ‘manifest destiny’. Also I think it smelled of ‘global socialism’ , or One World Government, or some other kind of brake on American Liberty.
Politics is a global fraud.
I have no suggestions about what to do about that.

I don't see politics as the problem, I just see people.
You get the govt you deserve, as they say.
Americans will not doubt vote Trump again. Why? Because
of the lack of a sensible, middle ground alternative.

Australia has good middle ground govts in Liberal and Labor,
our last election saw Labor's defeat because it was seen as
shifting from that middle ground (I worked for the Electoral Office)

The UN, and whatever might come after it when we have the next
Big War - is fundamentally flawed because it has no real leadership.
Having a body split into West, Communist and "non aligned" is a
symptom of this. How can, say, Saudi Arabia and America, agree
on world govt?
And look how the UN gangs up on Israel.

America's Manifest Destiny isn't really an issue. Every country has
some sense of its own destiny. If you don't you sink into nihilism.

Howard Is · Oct 25, 2019

PruePhillip said:
I don't see politics as the problem, I just see people.
You get the govt you deserve, as they say.

I don’t see candles as the problem, I see moths.
They don’t deserve candles. It’s just inevitable given their genes.

You get the genes that evolved.

In changing conditions, evolved strategies can become detrimental.

Our old narratives are ideological fossils.

PruePhillip · Oct 25, 2019

Howard Is said:
I don’t see candles as the problem, I see moths.
They don’t deserve candles. It’s just inevitable given their genes.

You get the genes that evolved.

In changing conditions, evolved strategies can become detrimental.

Our old narratives are ideological fossils.

Example
Menzies wanted Australia to keep the space technology the British offered them
when they left Woomera. Menzies rejected it because Australians are nearly
universal in their distaste for what they saw as a "waste of money" (to this very
day, BTW) That tech today, at about 500 billion dollar industry, outflanks our
entire mining industry. Menzies lamented the Australian decision. Historians
blame the Liberals lack of vision.

I met Pauline Hanson. She was forever looking the "next issue."
This is what politics is about - you find what concerns people. You can't have
a govt which is going to align itself with China and reject ANZUS, for instance.
Not unless there is a big shift in public sentiment.

Howard Is · Oct 25, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Example
Menzies wanted Australia to keep the space technology the British offered them
when they left Woomera. Menzies rejected it because Australians are nearly
universal in their distaste for what they saw as a "waste of money" (to this very
day, BTW) That tech today, at about 500 billion dollar industry, outflanks our
entire mining industry. Menzies lamented the Australian decision. Historians
blame the Liberals lack of vision.

I met Pauline Hanson. She was forever looking the "next issue."
This is what politics is about - you find what concerns people. You can't have
a govt which is going to align itself with China and reject ANZUS, for instance.
Not unless there is a big shift in public sentiment.

I get what you are saying.
Australians prefer the Head In The Sand Party.

Further to your example - Gough Whitlam.
There were two main reasons he was sacked. One was because he defied our cultural myopia and dared to look to the Middle East as a financial partner.
The other was that he wanted to renegotiate our deal with the US over Pine Gap.
That prompted action from the CIA...
I knew about that way back...but even in the late 1990s I was ridiculed by notable historians for suggesting it.

How can we ever expect leadership when everyone wants the old narratives affirmed ?

Footnote re Whitlam and Pine Gap....google Christopher John Boyce
You will immediately become a Person of Interest.

PruePhillip · Oct 25, 2019

Howard Is said:
I get what you are saying.
Australians prefer the Head In The Sand Party.

Further to your example - Gough Whitlam.
There were two main reasons he was sacked. One was because he defied our cultural myopia and dared to look to the Middle East as a financial partner.
The other was that he wanted to renegotiate our deal with the US over Pine Gap.
That prompted action from the CIA...
I knew about that way back...but even in the late 1990s I was ridiculed by notable historians for suggesting it.

How can we ever expect leadership when everyone wants the old narratives affirmed ?

Footnote re Whitlam and Pine Gap....google Christopher John Boyce
You will immediately become a Person of Interest.

I am suspicious of conspiracy theories.
In science a good theory has to be tested with predictions
If the CIA was THAT powerful and THAT interested in controlling
the political and economic landscape then:
Phillipines Duterte would be ousted (think Chinese "islands")
NZ govt overthrown (think anti-nuke campaign)
Elon Musk assassinated (think his challenge to aerospace giants and oil companies)
etc..

leov · Oct 25, 2019

PruePhillip said:
I don't see politics as the problem, I just see people.
You get the govt you deserve, as they say.
Americans will not doubt vote Trump again. Why? Because
of the lack of a sensible, middle ground alternative.

Australia has good middle ground govts in Liberal and Labor,
our last election saw Labor's defeat because it was seen as
shifting from that middle ground (I worked for the Electoral Office)

The UN, and whatever might come after it when we have the next
Big War - is fundamentally flawed because it has no real leadership.
Having a body split into West, Communist and "non aligned" is a
symptom of this. How can, say, Saudi Arabia and America, agree
on world govt?
And look how the UN gangs up on Israel.

America's Manifest Destiny isn't really an issue. Every country has
some sense of its own destiny. If you don't you sink into nihilism.

imo, problem is petrodollar.

Howard Is · Oct 26, 2019

PruePhillip said:
I am suspicious of conspiracy theories.
In science a good theory has to be tested with predictions
If the CIA was THAT powerful and THAT interested in controlling
the political and economic landscape then:
Phillipines Duterte would be ousted (think Chinese "islands")
NZ govt overthrown (think anti-nuke campaign)
Elon Musk assassinated (think his challenge to aerospace giants and oil companies)
etc..

Pine Gap is crucial to US defence.
It is non-negotiable.

PruePhillip · Oct 26, 2019

leov said:
imo, problem is petrodollar.

That's reducing most of reality to a caricature.
Events happen by a vast panoply of players,
including geography, history, religion, human
nature, politics, personalities, economics,
technology, media etc..
If petrodollars ruled the world there would be
no Telsla, for instance.

There are some nations controlled by the
holy petrodollar - these would include Saudi
Arabia, the gulf states and Russia. I wouldn't
put America into that equation as oil plays but
a small part in its vast economy - and domestic
supplies (or the tech to reach them) have them
covered pretty well.

Guitar's Cry · Oct 26, 2019

PruePhillip said:
I am suspicious of conspiracy theories.
In science a good theory has to be tested with predictions

To be fair, Howard Is was using the "moth to the flame" analogy to explain the human behavior of looking to politics for pack protection. This is based off of the concept of innate response mechanisms and supernormal stimuli in animal behavior--good tested science.

PureX · Oct 26, 2019

Stevicus said:
But as far as the US "ceasing to express irresponsible opinions," the US is like a person, who, if you tell him to shut up, he'll just keep talking more.

Well, like a childish person, anyway.

Erebus · Oct 26, 2019

Pence's speech:

It seems that the stars have aligned, Hell has frozen over and flying pigs blot out the sun...

I actually agree with Mike Pence.

Polymath257 · Oct 26, 2019

China should stop being an authoritarian autocracy.

Aupmanyav · Oct 26, 2019

Hong Kong is a part of China, and the people there should stop opposing the government. It will not benefit them.
American pronouncements will be better, saner, if Trump does not get re-elected; otherwise they will keep making a wall, a great wall, in Colorado; and wipe Turkey off the map.
And how do US protests matter? Sovereign countries will do what they want.

Revoltingest · Oct 26, 2019

Erebus said:
Pence's speech:

It seems that the stars have aligned, Hell has frozen over and flying pigs blot out the sun...

I actually agree with Mike Pence.

I rarely listen to political speeches, but I gave this'n a whirl.
It's rather over the top, but I approve the sentiment.

May Hong Kong fare well with this process.

"United States should 'cease expressing irresponsible opinions'"

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