What Do You Think is Wrong with Mysticism?

What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

Please note. For the purposes of this thread, mysticism in this context refers to only the mystical experience and not to such things as the paranormal, crystals, etc.



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Now that's a new thought ... to me. But yes, if what comes after the mystic experience is the need to yap about it to everyone, it could promote some disharmony, dislike, ego, and all that great stuff. But that's not the experience itself.

From your link:

The term "mystical experience" has become synonymous with the terms "religious experience", spiritual experience and sacred experience.

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Working from that perspective, it is easy to understand what an atheist such as myself would find wrong with it. Surely, you do not need me to go into it.

The #1 problem with mysticism to me is that it is hard to define, to explain, to demystify, to identify. Here I have provided several inked definitions and/or explanations:

"belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender." -- first google search result

"Mysticism as direct union of the human soul with the Divinity primarily from a Catholic perspective, but does mention other mystical traditions." -- Catholic encyclopedia

"Mysticism, the practice of religious ecstasies (religious experiences during alternate states of consciousness), together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them...." -- encyclopedia Britannica

Gaia Staff said:

Have you ever wondered, “Am I a mystic?” Chances are probably not. Mysticism holds a very loose definition, which can often be complicated, confusing, and nearly impossible to express with mere words. In Mysticism, direct knowledge of spiritual truth or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience. Ultimate reality is something that is supreme, final, and the fundamental power in all reality. Unlike Christianity, Islam or Judaism, Mysticism is not rooted in faith, principle, dogma, or even belief. This is because you do not “believe” in Mysticism. Instead, Mystics are born....

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from an article "Am I a Mystic?" at gaia.com

Sunstone said:

New What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

Please note. For the purposes of this thread, mysticism in this context refers to only the mystical experience and not to such things as the paranormal, crystals, etc.

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I can't criticize an experience, but I may take issue what mystics infer from their experiences or attribute their experience to.

To take a mystical experience as anything more than some kind of trip (whether drug-induced or not), there would need to be the sort of justification that I never see for the wilder claims from mystics.

Sunstone said:

What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

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Potential for substance abuse?

following

Sunstone said:

What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

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The fact you had to specify that you weren’t referring to the paranormal.

It’s a poorly defined concept with more baggage than actual meaning. I’m not sure why the term would ever need to be used.

My answer is 'nothing is wrong with it'. But then I consider myself one so to say something is wrong would be to say that I am wrong. And of course we can't have that.

Sunstone said:

What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

Please note. For the purposes of this thread, mysticism in this context refers to only the mystical experience and not to such things as the paranormal, crystals, etc.



_____________________
And now for some fun....

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Mysticism that is too general, can be a problem, because it may lack focus on things that are specifically beneficial. Now, this can be apples and oranges, however I prefer delineation, here, since I actually do believe in things that you might be calling paranormal, [presumably...


So, a very general mysticism, with nothing else, not very beneficial in my perspective, and, the paranormal or supernatural is also a feature that I find very useful to actually focus on. Though I don't use either of those words, to describe Theism, or the nature of the universe, or even how one would perceive that. It brings up the question, how can something perceived even be 'paranormal', as the perception of such, [[things you might consider magic, esoterica, so forth, suggests they are not outside the 'normal'.

In gnostic type approach, if one accepts that there might , even be, different entities involved, personally want delineation , there.

That is where traditional religious ideas, [gnosticism, differentiating good from bad Beings, so forth, is basically necessary, if one wants fo derive a more specific belief system. Or parallel such specifics to existing beliefs.

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That being said, 'general mysticism,' is utilized heavily, because, to put it basically, one doesn't want to make a mistake. Hence, general mysticism is a guideline for delineation, however really, this goes back to delineation. 'General mysticism' thusly always being, in actuality, in a context of delineation.

Nothing is wrong with it.

1. Sunstone said:

   What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

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I think it’s a thing, a valid thing if the person’s idea of it and experience is, especially as the Wikipedia article describes:

Extrovertive experiences: the sense of connectedness (“unity”) of oneself with nature, with a loss of a sense of boundaries within nature; the luminous glow to nature of “nature mysticism”; the presence of God immanent in nature outside of time shining through nature of “cosmic consciousness”; the lack of separate, self-existing entities of mindfulness states.

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Unfortunately I think too many people throw the word and idea around fast and loose, as they do with “karma”, balancing and opening their “shockras”, and releasing kundalini. Throwing these terms and ideas around as they are is what diminishes real experiences and gets them dismissed.

Sunstone said:

What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

Please note. For the purposes of this thread, mysticism in this context refers to only the mystical experience and not to such things as the paranormal, crystals, etc.



_____________________
And now for some fun....

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the problem with the mystical experience is like the problem of infinity. you can describe it in around about way but you're not capable of actually defining it. like describing how to drive vs actually knowing how to drive. or describing love vs actually knowing what it's like to love. the student can never be above the teacher, its enough that they should become like them. then if energy is eternal but transforming, i am there. i am the end and beginning of the lemniscate, ouroboros.

paul describes it as an awakening, as do most of your eastern philosophy, in the twinkling of an eye a secret unfolds.


daniel describes it as those who sleep in their physical bodies, awakening in the dust, the mind over matter.. jesus referred to the non-mystics as the dead.


when it says behold i make all things anew, then you have seen the world from a whole new state of mind.


so when jesus baptized with fire, the holy spirit, it was a new state of mind that involves light impressed with love.


behold it comes like a thief in the night, undercover, to expose everything to the light.


the holy spirit can be understood as the loving spirit, or loving mind. and this is what is given to all at birth and will return at death. because love generates perpetually. 1st to self and one's own lord and then to the other as self, lord. a real life fantasy, ecstasy.

namaste

Desert Snake said:

So, a very general mysticism, with nothing else, not very beneficial in my perspective

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I respectfully disagree. Here's 2 reasons why, but I could probably come up with more.

1) A general mysticism ( if I understand you ) encourages "do no harm / do unto others" morality; without the baggage and heavy lifting that comes with adopting a more well defined belief system. It has other benefits as well, I think. But if it encourages simple morality, isn't that beneficial?

2) The problem with mysticism is: Some people who have mystical experiences, end up, for better or worse, chasing the mystical experience if they are not able to cultivate and/or assimilate the mystical experience into the mundane aspects of their lives. If you agree with this, would you also agree that a 'general mysticism' diminishes the likelihood that a person gets caught up in seeking mystical experiences in an unhealthy manner?

dybmh said:

I respectfully disagree. Here's 2 reasons why, but I could probably come up with more.

1) A general mysticism ( if I understand you ) encourages "do no harm / do unto others" morality; without the baggage and heavy lifting that comes with adopting a more well defined belief system. It has other benefits as well, I think. But if it encourages simple morality, isn't that beneficial?

2) The problem with mysticism is: Some people who have mystical experiences, end up, for better or worse, chasing the mystical experience if they are not able to cultivate and/or assimilate the mystical experience into the mundane aspects of their lives. If you agree with this, would you also agree that a 'general mysticism' diminishes the likelihood that a person gets caught up in seeking mystical experiences in an unhealthy manner?

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I would disagree with that. It's theoretical, could go either way, and, actually I believe can lead to bad beliefs.

Note that you have a predicate, that supercedes the mysticism, the 'good or bad', predicate, also. So, no real inference that a generality is going to be 'better'.

Sunstone said:

What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

Please note. For the purposes of this thread, mysticism in this context refers to only the mystical experience and not to such things as the paranormal, crystals, etc.



_____________________
And now for some fun....

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I hate to repeat myself, but mysticism, like all those things in that category is not wrong. It is not even that.

Ciao

- viole

Sunstone said:

What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

Please note. For the purposes of this thread, mysticism in this context refers to only the mystical experience and not to such things as the paranormal, crystals, etc.



_____________________
And now for some fun....

Click to expand...

That the source of these experiences can't actually be determined.

IOW whether there is any actual external connection, like oneness of the universe or if it is an internal experience. It may simply be an experience that is created for us to consciously experience by our unconscious mind.

Not that this as an internal experience is wrong but a person may get the wrong idea about their own personal transformation being a universal experience. The idea that one's own personal experience holds any significance to anyone else in the world.

Desert Snake said:

Note that you have a predicate, that supercedes the mysticism, the 'good or bad', predicate, also. So, no real inference that a generality is going to be 'better'.

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Yes, *blush*, I noticed that too after I finished typing it. The reason I wrote it that way is because, ( for me ) good/bad is subjective, but unhealthy is objective. But I can see you understood my meaning. Thank you for the reply.

Sunstone said:

What do you think is wrong with mysticism?

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It doesn't translate well.

Maybe it's just too yin (expansive and subtle/hidden) for a yang (contractive and showy) culture to handle? Too alien?