Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

kjw47 · Oct 23, 2019

metis said:
This doesn't even remotely deal with what I wrote, so please next time try and stick to the subject of the post you're responding to.

I assume Jesus didn't lie, but the JW leaders certainly have repeatedly done as such. On top of that, they teach their followers to disobey Jesus' teaching to "judge ye not...".

Every time they predicted the end of times and it didn't happen, they formulated an excuse that they couldn't possibly know to supposedly be correct. And this is undoubtedly is why they don't want their followers to have a good education whereas they won't question them. This is why they don't want you to visit other churches or even read any of their materials.

My denomination doesn't do that, which is why there are so many Catholic universities and so many Catholic hospitals and so many Catholic charities to help Catholics and non-Catholics alike and to educate. We don't want our parishioners to be ignorant, but we certainly can't say the same about your JW leaders.

If you are not wiling to study from a variety of sources, you might as well but a ring through your nose so the JW leaders can lead their followers along and keeping their flock ignorant.

Actually they made errors in the earlier years. They corrected those errors in front of the whole world. They only had error filled trinity translations to go by back then. They corrected those errors and came out with the New world translation.
I attended different trinity based religions. 0 taught what Jesus actually teaches. My teachers teach us every utterance from God, over and over, year after year.. Jesus teaches-Man MUST live by every one of them.
Jw,s don't judge. The bibles words has already judged. That is why they hated Jesus, apostles and followers back then. They told the truth. The truth Jesus brought exposes all the false religions and the practices. The world does not like it. Jesus said his followers would be hated as he was.
0No follower needs a charity. They have listened to Jesus at Matthew 6:33 and have accomplished this. Jesus promised( Matt 6) sustenance, covering, spirituality would be added to whomever did Matthew 6:33. Most have 0 clue that-HIS in Matthew 6:33= YHVH(Jehovah)-- The real Jesus sends his followers to his Father( John 4:22-24)

kjw47 · Oct 23, 2019

metis said:
You are lying as you repeatedly have done as such as well as some other JW's here. When you say an element cannot be saved, you are doing what is God's role, not yours nor mine. My church teaches that is unethical for us to judge others, as even Paul was unwilling to even judge himself.

The Bible does not judge anyone-- God does.

Now you are lying again as all Christian denominations use the full Bible that includes the Gospel of Jesus.

See how much your leaders have brainwashed you? In John 3[16] Jesus said that anyone who believes in Jesus will be saved, but your JW leaders basically are calling Jesus a liar. Why? To play the we/they game, whereas the "we" are supposedly the good guys with the white hats and the "they" are the bad guys with the black hats. By doing as such, which is totally dishonest btw, JW leaders try to gain and then hold their membership by teaching them this disingenuous and anti-Gospel dichotomy that's in defiance of John 3[16] and the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats.

Until you are willing to try and study these matters objectively through using multiple sources, you will forever be trapped. Breaking out of a cult is usually very difficult, and the JW's are no exception to this rule. I know as I've lived next to two sets of JW's for over 40 years now, read their materials many times, and discussed this with them on many occasions. Nice people but fortunately both left the JW's when they realized how they'd been taken in through their propaganda, with the one set of neighbors leaving earlier this year.

The Muslims do not listen to the NT. You think you know the bible? Bottom line reality= After Jesus sends his followers to his Father, their hearts instruct their minds daily to do this-John 4:22-24 without fail. Listen to Jesus. He tells you- you worship what you do not know and points all to the Father.. He as well warned all on account of his name-They would not know the one who sent him-Father.( John 15:20-21)-- He also teaches--Matt 17:3--The one who sent him= Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.---Why wont you believe Jesus words?

CG Didymus · Oct 23, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I say again, William Miller used this calculation and that starting point. Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

Further study from external sources - Prophecy of Seventy Weeks - Wikipedia

The Baha'i use it because it was correct.

Regards Tony

William Miller is not infallible. Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha' are supposed to be infallible. Why did they use the rebuilding of Jerusalem when Daniel says...

Daniel 8:13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

So, just for kicks, if the Baha'is had a date for when the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people happened, and then at that point counted the 2300 evenings and mornings, what date would that be and at which date would it end?

Plus, 2300 days is equal to 2300 years in your figuring, but what is 2300 evenings and mornings? Should that be divided in half to make a complete day?

And, the Seventy Week prophecy is different. You can start that anywhere you want... 1st decree, 2nd decree or the 3rd decree. But how do Baha'is justify using that starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings? If you don't know, that's okay. If you don't know and don't care, that's all right too. But, you are doing the same evasive maneuvers that you did with Firedragon's questions. And that is a problem.

Or, I got an idea, why not answer the question as asked. How do Baha'is justify using the date for rebuilding of Jerusalem decree as the starting point of the 2300 evenings and mornings when it goes against what is said in Daniel 8? You guys have the truth from God for this age. You must have a reasonable answer from the Baha'i writings... not from Wikipedia.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 23, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I agree as I do see it as simple, thus as per the OP, why was the Messiah rejected?

Thus the quandary of your vision of simplicity.

Regards Tony

Tony, you are a nice guy, and I like you. But it did disturb me that you defended lying. When you combine this with the outright denial of reality that you do (such as saying that all the messianic prophecies are already fulfilled) all I can say is that with every conversation I move further and further away from Baha'i.

Trailblazer · Oct 24, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Tony, you are a nice guy, and I like you. But it did disturb me that you defended lying. When you combine this with the outright denial of reality that you do (such as saying that all the messianic prophecies are already fulfilled) all I can say is that with every conversation I move further and further away from Baha'i.

I have not been following this thread so I do not know what Tony has said, but the Messianic prophecies have not all been fulfilled. But just because they have not all been fulfilled that does not mean that Baha'u'llah was not the Messiah, since there is no reason to think all of them would have been fulfilled during His lifetime or even within any specified period of time after that, since the scriptures put no time-frame on their fulfillment.

The Messianic Age will stretch thousands of years into the future, so there is plenty of time for the prophecies to be fulfilled. Here is an excerpt from a short chapter called God’s Purpose that explains what Baha'is believe will happen in the Messianic Age:

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 24, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I have not been following this thread so I do not know what Tony has said, but the Messianic prophecies have not all been fulfilled.

Thank you for your honesty. Perhaps I have misunderstood Tony -- I hope so.

May I ask you... If the Bahai'u'llah didn't fulfill all the messianic prophecies, why in the world would you think he was the Messiah? In Jewish opinion, you either fulfill them all, or you have failed.

Trailblazer · Oct 24, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Thank you for your honesty. Perhaps I have misunderstood Tony -- I hope so.

May I ask you... If the Bahai'u'llah didn't fulfill all the messianic prophecies, why in the world would you think he was the Messiah? In Jewish opinion, you either fulfill them all, or you have failed.

I know a little bit about the Jewish opinion because I posted on another forum for a while where there were two very orthodox Jews and on another forum where there was a very liberal Jew.... but it has been a long while so I have forgotten most of what they said.

I seem to recall that the Jewish belief is that the Messianic prophecies will be fulfilled during the lifetime of the Messiah and He will be the one responsible for fulfilling them. If so, could you provide me with some verses that say this. I am headed off to bed now, late as usual, so whenever you have time you can post them.

As soon as I have time I will try to explain why I think that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the Messianic prophecies, and part of this is related to what He also fulfilled that is in the New Testament, the promises of Jesus.

TransmutingSoul · Oct 24, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Tony, you are a nice guy, and I like you. But it did disturb me that you defended lying. When you combine this with the outright denial of reality that you do (such as saying that all the messianic prophecies are already fulfilled) all I can say is that with every conversation I move further and further away from Baha'i.

Trailblazer said:
I have not been following this thread so I do not know what Tony has said, but the Messianic prophecies have not all been fulfilled.

IndigoChild5559 said:
Thank you for your honesty. Perhaps I have misunderstood Tony -- I hope so.

May I ask you... If the Bahai'u'llah didn't fulfill all the messianic prophecies, why in the world would you think he was the Messiah? In Jewish opinion, you either fulfill them all, or you have failed.

I see Prophecy has a spiritual unfoldmemt and a material component unfolds in time. They may not be seen to coincide, but that is our perception of this world, we do not see what happens in the Spiritual worlds of God.

There is much written on this, but here is one quote from Baha'u'llah that makes it quite clear;

"The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause."

Who am I to say they have not, if the 'Self of God' has said they have?

Here is a discussion on it The Promises of God Have All Been Fulfilled

Regards Tony

metis · Oct 24, 2019

kjw47 said:
Actually they made errors in the earlier years. They corrected those errors in front of the whole world. They only had error filled trinity translations to go by back then. They corrected those errors and came out with the New world translation.
I attended different trinity based religions. 0 taught what Jesus actually teaches. My teachers teach us every utterance from God, over and over, year after year.. Jesus teaches-Man MUST live by every one of them.
Jw,s don't judge. The bibles words has already judged. That is why they hated Jesus, apostles and followers back then. They told the truth. The truth Jesus brought exposes all the false religions and the practices. The world does not like it. Jesus said his followers would be hated as he was.
0No follower needs a charity. They have listened to Jesus at Matthew 6:33 and have accomplished this. Jesus promised( Matt 6) sustenance, covering, spirituality would be added to whomever did Matthew 6:33. Most have 0 clue that-HIS in Matthew 6:33= YHVH(Jehovah)-- The real Jesus sends his followers to his Father( John 4:22-24)

Again, instead of posting in response to what I actually wrote, you have chosen to go off on a tangent.

BTW, "Jehovah" is not a correct name for God as there is no "J" sound in Hebrew, so maybe next time when you go off on another tangent maybe you should remember that since the JW's supposedly are into the correct name for God-- just another one of their fabrications.

metis · Oct 24, 2019

kjw47 said:
The Muslims do not listen to the NT.

Well, if you actually did some studying you would actually know that they do since they recognize Jesus as being a prophet, plus they also honor Mary as well.

But then how could we expect you to know since you won't even look at any other religious sources than your own. Your JW leaders have so thoroughly brainwashed you into believing that studying anything other than what they teach you is somehow wrong. The byproduct of that has a name: "ignorance". You have allowed yourself to be trapped into such ignorance, and the only way out of it is to start studying from various other sources and see for yourself.

kjw47 said:
You think you know the bible?

kjw47 said:
Listen to Jesus. He tells you- you worship what you do not know and points all to the Father..

Again, further proof that you have no intention of believing in Jesus-- only your JW "masters". Again, you are judging me in violation of Jesus' own words of "judge ye not".

kjw47 said:
Why wont you believe Jesus words?

See above, plus I have explained to you how I do regard the scriptures and why.

What Jesus repeatedly taught was "love one another as I have loved you", and yet your posts only rarely focus on that. Paul states that we are not to cause divisions within Christ's body, and yet the JW's continually do just that.

kjw47 · Oct 24, 2019

metis said:
Again, instead of posting in response to what I actually wrote, you have chosen to go off on a tangent.

BTW, "Jehovah" is not a correct name for God as there is no "J" sound in Hebrew, so maybe next time when you go off on another tangent maybe you should remember that since the JW's supposedly are into the correct name for God-- just another one of their fabrications.

I am not speaking Hebrew-YHVH--Actually the name Jehovah was made in the 1500,s--The JW,s were not around. Try sticking to Facts.

kjw47 · Oct 24, 2019

metis said:
Well, if you actually did some studying you would actually know that they do since they recognize Jesus as being a prophet, plus they also honor Mary as well.

But then how could we expect you to know since you won't even look at any other religious sources than your own. Your JW leaders have so thoroughly brainwashed you into believing that studying anything other than what they teach you is somehow wrong. The byproduct of that has a name: "ignorance". You have allowed yourself to be trapped into such ignorance, and the only way out of it is to start studying from various other sources and see for yourself.

Again, further proof that you have no intention of believing in Jesus-- only your JW "masters". Again, you are judging me in violation of Jesus' own words of "judge ye not".

See above, plus I have explained to you how I do regard the scriptures and why.

What Jesus repeatedly taught was "love one another as I have loved you", and yet your posts only rarely focus on that. Paul states that we are not to cause divisions within Christ's body, and yet the JW's continually do just that.

Any one putting a sinful mortal above the son of God has erred greatly and has lost. Thus all who follow as well. Trinity religions=34,000-- the JW,s do not need to divide them. satan has already.
Your error as usual--I attended different trinity religions--NONE teach what Jesus actually teaches.
This world has no clue as to the love Jesus spoke about. They all love family and friends as did Adolf Hitler. Jesus says one must have that love for their enemies as well.

Here is what God says--- This is my son, the beloved in whom I am well pleased--LISTEN TO HIM.. I don't see the name Mohammed there. So do you think the Muslims actually listen to Jesus? Trinity religions don't how can they then.

metis · Oct 25, 2019

kjw47 said:
I am not speaking Hebrew-YHVH--Actually the name Jehovah was made in the 1500,s--The JW,s were not around. Try sticking to Facts.

Nice excuse, but wrong is wrong, thus it makes no sense whatsoever to stick with wrong by blaming someone else. I am "sticking to Facts", but you have repeatedly made it very clear that facts really don't much matter to you, but blind loyalty to your JW masters, thus not what's actual does.

metis · Oct 25, 2019

kjw47 said:
Any one putting a sinful mortal above the son of God has erred greatly and has lost.

We don't do that, so you are now lying. Do you actually think Jesus would approve of this, kjw47?

kjw47 said:
Your error as usual--I attended different trinity religions--NONE teach what Jesus actually teaches.

I have also attended many different churches, thus you are lying again with that statement. Do your JW masters teach you that lying is somehow moral? Mine don't.

kjw47 said:
This world has no clue as to the love Jesus spoke about. They all love family and friends

"Love" is one of the central themes that Jesus taught, and the above is a stereotype of other Christian denominations than yours. Do you believe that stereotyping is right and proper, as it is a form of lying?

kjw47 said:
I don't see the name Mohammed there. So do you think the Muslims actually listen to Jesus?

I already explained that they do have a belief in Jesus, although theirs obviously is somewhat different than ours.

kjw47 said:
Trinity religions don't how can they then.

Just more condescending bigotry similar to "my daddy is bigger than your daddy". Plus, I betcha that you don't really have a clue about the Trinitarian concept and how and why it got formulated as it stands. Do you understand the concept of "essence", which is key with this?

Your use of both stereotyping and religious bigotry is appalling, ignorant, and childish, and it's truly a shame that your JW masters teach you these things. Maybe it's time for you to seek out a denomination that doesn't do this, which is most denominations nowadays, so you'd have a lot to choose from.

littleme · Oct 25, 2019

I think Jesus was just another preacher with ideas above his status. I can't believe he was a messiah, apart from his followers most Jews didn't think he was either and still don't.

kjw47 · Oct 25, 2019

metis said:
Nice excuse, but wrong is wrong, thus it makes no sense whatsoever to stick with wrong by blaming someone else. I am "sticking to Facts", but you have repeatedly made it very clear that facts really don't much matter to you, but blind loyalty to your JW masters, thus not what's actual does.

One must be loyal to the teachers Jesus appointed, by rejecting them, one is as well rejecting God and Jesus to by doing so.(Luke 10:16)
I say--God has made his name known. And Jesus promised to keep on making it known( John 17:26

kjw47 · Oct 25, 2019

metis said:
We don't do that, so you are now lying. Do you actually think Jesus would approve of this, kjw47?

I have also attended many different churches, thus you are lying again with that statement. Do your JW masters teach you that lying is somehow moral? Mine don't.

"Love" is one of the central themes that Jesus taught, and the above is a stereotype of other Christian denominations than yours. Do you believe that stereotyping is right and proper, as it is a form of lying?

I already explained that they do have a belief in Jesus, although theirs obviously is somewhat different than ours.

Just more condescending bigotry similar to "my daddy is bigger than your daddy". Plus, I betcha that you don't really have a clue about the Trinitarian concept and how and why it got formulated as it stands. Do you understand the concept of "essence", which is key with this?

Your use of both stereotyping and religious bigotry is appalling, ignorant, and childish, and it's truly a shame that your JW masters teach you these things. Maybe it's time for you to seek out a denomination that doesn't do this, which is most denominations nowadays, so you'd have a lot to choose from.

How many days has your heart instructed your mind to accomplish this-John 4:22-24---this is what a true follower does daily. How many days have you been instructed to accomplish this--Matt 6:33--Therefore, keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his-YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness?
I said the Muslims place a mortal sinner( Mohammed) above Jesus.
I attended different denominations, not one teaches what Jesus actually teaches like I shared 2 important ones above-never done by a trinitarian. They do not get by Jesus to get to the Father.
I state facts not bigotry.
When has your teachers shared with you that Jesus teaches he has a God like we do( John 20:17) Or that the one who sent him=Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD---What don't your teachers understand about these simple truths from Jesus? And why wont you believe Jesus over those men?
Fact--Jesus brought Gods truth. He said the Father is the only true God. So by teaching God as being a trinity is actually calling Jesus a liar.

metis · Oct 26, 2019

kjw47 said:
How many days has your heart instructed your mind to accomplish this-John 4:22-24---this is what a true follower does daily. How many days have you been instructed to accomplish this--Matt 6:33--Therefore, keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his-YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness?
I said the Muslims place a mortal sinner( Mohammed) above Jesus.
I attended different denominations, not one teaches what Jesus actually teaches like I shared 2 important ones above-never done by a trinitarian. They do not get by Jesus to get to the Father.
I state facts not bigotry.
When has your teachers shared with you that Jesus teaches he has a God like we do( John 20:17) Or that the one who sent him=Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD---What don't your teachers understand about these simple truths from Jesus? And why wont you believe Jesus over those men?
Fact--Jesus brought Gods truth. He said the Father is the only true God. So by teaching God as being a trinity is actually calling Jesus a liar.

The above is just a bunch of highly bigoted statements based on acute judgmentalism, whereas you simply are all so willing to disobey what Jesus taught about not judging others, thus preferring to blindly follow your JW masters who teach that what should clearly be immoral under Jesus' teachings is somehow moral. We have a phrase for people acting like that here in the States and it goes "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

And what I don't see in your posts is agape, namely Jesus' love for all of us and that we should love him, God, the Holy Spirit, and all of God's creation. My denomination teaches that this is essential-- too bad yours mainly seems to teach judgmentalism towards your fellow Christians to the point of even questioning their salvation. It is so utterly arrogant and immoral for you and your JW masters to do this in defiance of what's written in the New Testament.

Therefore, maybe seek out a denomination that teaches agape as a way of life like most other denominations do, and then consider letting God do the judging as Jesus taught.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 27, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I know a little bit about the Jewish opinion because I posted on another forum for a while where there were two very orthodox Jews and on another forum where there was a very liberal Jew.... but it has been a long while so I have forgotten most of what they said.

I seem to recall that the Jewish belief is that the Messianic prophecies will be fulfilled during the lifetime of the Messiah and He will be the one responsible for fulfilling them. If so, could you provide me with some verses that say this. I am headed off to bed now, late as usual, so whenever you have time you can post them.

As soon as I have time I will try to explain why I think that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the Messianic prophecies, and part of this is related to what He also fulfilled that is in the New Testament, the promises of Jesus.

I'm not sure I understand the question. Why would there need to be verses stating such, when it is the only view that makes common sense? Either you are the messiah and you fulfill the prophecies, or you don't fulfill all the prophecies and you are not the messiah.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 27, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see Prophecy has a spiritual unfoldmemt and a material component unfolds in time. They may not be seen to coincide, but that is our perception of this world, we do not see what happens in the Spiritual worlds of God.

There is much written on this, but here is one quote from Baha'u'llah that makes it quite clear;

"The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause."

Who am I to say they have not, if the 'Self of God' has said they have?

Here is a discussion on it The Promises of God Have All Been Fulfilled

Regards Tony

Hi Tony. Good to see you again.

First, as I have said many times, I find this spiritualization of the prophecies to be simply dishonest. If it says, "Nation shall not life up sword against nation," there is nothing spiritual about that -- it's talking about the cessation of all earthly wars (which has not yet been fulfilled).

Second, once you remove the prophecies to the spiritual realm, you can no longer look to see whether they are fulfilled or not. When they are earthly, it is easy to say, "Yes this has happened, " or "No, it has not." But not so if it is spiritual -- it is much more nebulous. Who can say whether there is spiritual peace or not??? You can make an argument both directions. To me that is sly. It is a way to weasel out of being held responsible for the fulfillment of the prophecies. You might as well not have them in the first place. Do you see what I am saying?

Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

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