What is the physical world?

wizanda said:

In my opinion.

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Yeah, in your opinion. I would have had no problem with it if you did not mix Abraham in it. But you did, and therefore, I disagree. As we Hindus would say, 'your 'samskaras' pull you back'. You cannot get over them.

blü 2 said:

The physical world is .. politics and economy are found.

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Yeah, all that is true. But the question is whether it is a reality or a matrix.

Pudding said:

Your opinion that reality is a gross reality is noted.

So what is the real truth?


So your definition of "real" is that it has the same meaning of "dharma"?
So by "the physical world is not real", you mean the "physical world is not dharma".

That's a very weird version of definition, and i recognized that you didn't use the dictionary's definition of real. Anyway, whatever.


The truth you're refering to is that "the physical world is not real"?


By reality, you mean fake reality?


What is the difference between truth and real truth?

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The only truth in this physical world is that life is suffering.
When letting go of Attachments to like/dislike/happiness/sadness/greed,delution/wanting/Ego/Jealosy/ it becomes clear that everything a human do is living in the past or future from dislike(past) to wanting(future) But few humans can live in the present moment only by existing and accept anything as it is. Living in the past by thinking of it is suffering, Living in the future by thinking of what humans should have is suffering, because one does not accept life as it is experienced.

Dharma is the teaching of life is suffering (until the attachments to life has been let go of)

Amanaki said:

You describe the signal your brain receive and translate, not the non psyical world outside this realm, our consiousness does not lay in the Brain as you believe. It lay actually in a different realm of existance.

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Yeah, right. That explains how your consciousness disappears entirely when you are given a general anaesthetic before surgery. See, propofol only shuts down the physical brain -- but when you do that, tada! No more consciousness. Kinda suggests that they might be linked together somehow, really. Other things that happen to the brain that severely affect the conscious self suggest the same thing, too. Thinks like Alzheimer's or catastrophic brain injury that utterly change the whole character of a person.

It's fascinatingly easy to say a thing like "consciousness exists in a different realm of existence," but it's actually hard enough to demonstrate that nobody has ever yet done so.

Amanaki said:

The only truth in this physical world is that life is suffering.
When letting go of Attachments to like/dislike/happiness/sadness/greed,delution/wanting/Ego/Jealosy/ it becomes clear that everything a human do is living in the past or future from dislike(past) to wanting(future) But few humans can live in the present moment only by existing and accept anything as it is. Living in the past by thinking of it is suffering, Living in the future by thinking of what humans should have is suffering, because one does not accept life as it is experienced.

Dharma is the teaching of life is suffering (until the attachments to life has been let go of)

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Thanks for sharing your opinion. Bye.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Yeah, right. That explains how your consciousness disappears entirely when you are given a general anaesthetic before surgery. See, propofol only shuts down the physical brain -- but when you do that, tada! No more consciousness. Kinda suggests that they might be linked together somehow, really. Other things that happen to the brain that severely affect the conscious self suggest the same thing, too. Thinks like Alzheimer's or catastrophic brain injury that utterly change the whole character of a person.

It's fascinatingly easy to say a thing like "consciousness exists in a different realm of existence," but it's actually hard enough to demonstrate that nobody has ever yet done so.

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If you unplug your computer it stops working, same with the brain, if you inject anesthetics into it, the signal is stopped and your brain experience shut down it is no longer a receiver of signals, but your subconsciousness takes over and it becomes like a dream state. you are also unconscious when you sleep, then again you do not die because subconsciousness take over control

ChristineM said:

Are you saying that if one cannot adequately sense an object (sight, smell, touch etc) one must make up an explanation upccount for your own limitations?

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Yeah, all our senses are limited.
The 12 senses - The twelve senses

"According to experts, with our regular vision, we can see objects small as about 0.1 millimeters. And this is without the help of any tools."


"The commonly stated range of human hearing is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Under ideal laboratory conditions, humans can hear sound as low as 12 Hz and as high as 28 kHz, though the threshold increases sharply at 15 kHz in adults, corresponding to the last auditory channel of the cochlea. Humans are most sensitive to (i.e. able to discern at lowest intensity) frequencies between 2,000 and 5,000 Hz."

Cortical Homanculus: (9 surprising facts about the sense of touch)
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2M9...us_asset/file/3347676/I10-13-homunculus.0.jpg

"Among mammals, it is well developed in the carnivores and ungulates, which must always be aware of each other, and in those that smell for their food, such as moles. .. It is estimated that dogs in general have an olfactory sense approximately ten thousand to a hundred thousand times more acute than a human's."
(Quotes generally from Wikipedia articles)

Aupmanyav said:

Yeah, all our senses are limited.
The 12 senses - The twelve senses

"According to experts, with our regular vision, we can see objects small as about 0.1 millimeters. And this is without the help of any tools."

"The commonly stated range of human hearing is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Under ideal laboratory conditions, humans can hear sound as low as 12 Hz and as high as 28 kHz, though the threshold increases sharply at 15 kHz in adults, corresponding to the last auditory channel of the cochlea. Humans are most sensitive to (i.e. able to discern at lowest intensity) frequencies between 2,000 and 5,000 Hz."

Cortical Homanculus: (9 surprising facts about the sense of touch)

"Among mammals, it is well developed in the carnivores and ungulates, which must always be aware of each other, and in those that smell for their food, such as moles. .. It is estimated that dogs in general have an olfactory sense approximately ten thousand to a hundred thousand times more acute than a human's."
(Quotes generally from Wikipedia articles)

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Just because we cannot see an object does not change that object

And we do have tools.

Also, that does not answer my question. "Are you saying that if one cannot adequately sense an object (sight, smell, touch etc) one must make up an explanation upccount for your own limitations?"[/QUOTE]

Pudding said:

(1) Because the physical world is impermanence and not solid, therefor the physical world is not real? Your answer is yes or no?
(2) What is your definition of real?
(3) You believe the physical world is not real. You believe the spiritual world is real. Am i correct? Yes or no?

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Nice questions. I take the opportunity to reply to them.
(1) Everything that I see is constituted by energy. Now, the question arises whether energy real or unreal? Energy has come up with space. Perhaps at Big Bang energy expanded as space did. It may have arisen from nothing, just the result of quantum fluctuation. Such is our universe. No space, no energy.
(2) That is why difficult to define real or unreal, material or non-material.
(3) The world as we perceive is not real. It is just an ocean of energy. I am a strong atheist, so I do not believe in existence of any spiritual world.

@Aupmanyav and @Evangelicalhumanist
Thank you. It came on so quickly and I am so heartbroken for them all. Nothing seems to be working medically to help him. I am still holding out hope somehow he may improve but so far, 6 weeks now, it's all been downhill. Life is just so unpredictable. I've been helping with my grandchildren but otherwise it's a helpless feeling. I appreciate your kind words.

Amanaki said:

To (Amanaki) the physical world is nothing more than a reflection of (Amanaki`s) Consciousness and perception of what the consciousness experiences in each moment. (meaning the physical world is not real)
To others, the answer to what the physical world is will be different.

How do you perceive the physical realm/world in your understanding?

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My question is, why is our consciousness so full of bloodshed, inhumane abuse, rape and torture of man, woman, and child... and hopelessness that lead some to suicide?
Where did such a consciousness originate?
I see the physical world as real - a real experience.

ChristineM said:

Also, that does not answer my question. "Are you saying that if one cannot adequately sense an object (sight, smell, touch etc) one must make up an explanation upccount for your own limitations?"

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I do not accept made up explanations, I go with science. You sense a table, but it is science which tells you that what you perceive as a table is a collection of molecules and atoms in which there are HUGE expanse of space populated by few points of energy designated as electrons, protons, neutrons, etc.

"The atom is about 100,000 times bigger than its nucleus. If the atomic nucleus were a pingpong ball (r ~ 1cm), its electrons would be in orbits about a kilometer away."
Please note, even the nucleus is not a solid ball. Nothing solid at all.

nPeace said:

My question is, why is our consciousness so full of bloodshed, inhumane abuse, rape and torture of man, woman, and child... and hopelessness that lead some to suicide?
Where did such a consciousness originate?
I see the physical world as real - a real experience.

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The answer that can be given is that mankind holds on to their ego/self, and if something goes against them or make them suffer, they try to make others suffer the same way. Often they can not see the truth behind the situation (karma)

To sow worries and sadness when someone is sick that comes from compassion toward the one who suffers from sickness, then that is not a part of holding on to self/ego.
Compassion is a good thing to have toward others.

Amanaki said:

The answer that can be given is that mankind holds on to their ego/self, and if something goes against them or make them suffer, they try to make others suffer the same way. Often they can not see the truth behind the situation (karma)

To sow worries and sadness when someone is sick that comes from compassion toward the one who suffers from sickness, then that is not a part of holding on to self/ego.
Compassion is a good thing to have toward others.

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I'm really asking why do I see it, when I don't want to see it, if it is not real? Does your consciousness hold these things within?

nPeace said:

My question is, why is our consciousness so full of bloodshed, inhumane abuse, rape and torture of man, woman, and child... and hopelessness that lead some to suicide?
Where did such a consciousness originate?
I see the physical world as real - a real experience.

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Blame God for that. Design fault.
Yeah, the 'physical world' is real but the question is 'how much real?'

nPeace said:

I'm really asking why do I see it, when I don't want to see it, if it is not real? Does your consciousness hold these things within?

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Clinging to the physical experiences is making you "see suffering" as a result of not being able to see the cause of the negativity in the world. Do Amanaki see what happens in the physical world? Yes, but not clinging to it make it possible to see that there is not one single cause to all the negativity, Suffering in the physical world is a result of past action that human clinging to. when a human can let go of everything from past experiences or the wish for something in the future and only live in the moment, suffering for this person stops.
Will it still be others suffering? yes until they can let go too. Suffering is a mental experience because we do not like what is experienced. when liking/disliking has been let go of. suffering ends

wandering peacefully said:

@Aupmanyav and @Evangelicalhumanist
Thank you. It came on so quickly and I am so heartbroken for them all. Nothing seems to be working medically to help him. I am still holding out hope somehow he may improve but so far, 6 weeks now, it's all been downhill. Life is just so unpredictable. I've been helping with my grandchildren but otherwise it's a helpless feeling. I appreciate your kind words.

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In adversity, be strong.

Aupmanyav said:

I do not accept made up explanations, I go with science. You sense a table, but it is science which tells you that what you perceive as a table is a collection of molecules and atoms in which there are HUGE expanse of space populated by few points of energy designated as electrons, protons, neutrons, etc.

"The atom is about 100,000 times bigger than its nucleus. If the atomic nucleus were a pingpong ball (r ~ 1cm), its electrons would be in orbits about a kilometer away."
Please note, even the nucleus is not a solid ball. Nothing solid at all.

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Yes i know all this about reality, atomic structure and to some extent the quantum universe (although it often flies right over my head)

What i am struggling with here is the claim that the physical world is not real, only our consciousness and perception is real

Aupmanyav said:

Grieved to hear that. The experienced world is like that.That is the problem, and our senses are too limited.Yeah, it does not seem like that though physics says when you prick your finger, no two atoms have touched each other. A Vestigial Mote, where from this reality has arisen?

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If atoms didn't repel one another at the atomic level, then everything would just be energy invading the space of other energy, and there would probably be a lot of dastardly collisions of particles that would wreak havoc on the properties of all matter everywhere. The fact that there exists that repulsion is a fundamental fact/truth/property of the workings of the universe.

And so yes, no two atoms literally touched each other when you pricked your finger. But this doesn't mean that reality is some illusion. All it means is that the force applied to the end of the pin was great enough to overcome the resistant bonds being made by the skin material/cells/molecules in front of it, and therefore they moved out of its way. When that happened, the opening that resulted allowed blood cells (more matter) to flow through the gap - which they were bound to do having been pressurized by the pump-action of your heart. No physical "laws" or base functions of the universe were broken or hindered. Everything worked as it most certainly will each and every time the same thing occurs.

I understand what people mean when they say that reality isn't what we experience/perceive - I do, because that part is correct. Because what we perceive is 1,000,000 times or more removed from the actual, strange interactions and relationships of energy that we label "matter." However - my point still stands, and you cannot easily refute it - that those interactions and relationships ARE WHAT THEY ARE REGARDLESS WHETHER ANYONE IS THERE TO PERCEIVE IT OR NOT.

Amanaki said:

To (Amanaki) the physical world is nothing more than a reflection of (Amanaki`s) Consciousness and perception of what the consciousness experiences in each moment. (meaning the physical world is not real)
To others, the answer to what the physical world is will be different.

How do you perceive the physical realm/world in your understanding?

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The physical world is something that some believe illusory. I find the following question helps "ground them":

"Can I have you permission to strike you hard in the face?"

BilliardsBall said:

The physical world is something that some believe illusory. I find the following question helps "ground them":

"Can I have you permission to strike you hard in the face?"

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What would that help to solve? The universe has its own physical law (within the dharma) So if you punch someone you hit them. But if a person has the supernatural ability ( psychic powers) they can punch through you. So yes still the solid is not so solid after all