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Can you answer my post?Confused

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Jesus said that the reason he had come was to preach the kingdom of God, and so he has.
What did he preach about the Kingdom? And by what he taught, and using the rest of the Bible, what was the Jewish expectation of Messiah's Kingdom? Daniel's prophesies for example on the "time of the end"....how do these fit in with what Jesus and his apostles taught?

For example, he had told his disciples that some there would not taste death until they saw the kingdom of God come with power. After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John to a high mountain and was transfigured before them. His raiment became shining, exceedingly white as snow, and there appeared to them Elijah and Moses who spoke with Jesus of his decease he was to accomplish in Jerusalem.

What those three men were witness to was an exhibition of the kingdom of God when it comes in power.

I agree with you that this was the promise fulfilled where he said that some among his disciples would see him in his Kingdom glory. But what was the transfiguration? Was it a real event or was it a vision?

Were Moses and Elijah really present?

Moses had died and was buried. He was therefore raised from the dead. Elijah was translated and made immortal in the twinkling of an eye when he was taken up to heaven. Jesus was transfigured to appear as he will when the kingdom of God comes in power.

Now this is where I believe the story starts to come apart. Moses was dead in his grave (as was Elijah) and John wrote that no one had ascended to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) That means that Elijah did not die and go to heaven at all.....in fact there is evidence that he was merely relocated. This is shown by the fact that Elisha (his successor) does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years after his spectacular exit in the windstorm, Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15)

The purpose of Jesus' spiritual resurrection was to return to his Father in the form that he had before he was born as a human. (He had sacrificed his human body so he did not take it back) All mankind were to 'sleep' in death until Christ was installed as King of God's Kingdom, then there would be the sign that he gave his apostles in Matthew 24:3-14 and his anointed ones would be raised first to take up their station in heaven.

And only after all earthly governments were "crushed" out of existence at Armageddon, and replaced with God's Kingdom rulership, was there to be a physical resurrection of their subjects, both pre-Christian and those who faithfully followed Christ until their death. (Daniel 2:44; John 5:28-29)

None of the pre-Christian servants of God were taken into the new covenant.....that was not inaugurated until Passover night of 33CE. Only those taken into that covenant would join Christ in heaven as "kings and priests" (Revelation 20:6) These alone are parties to the covenant...the rest of us are beneficiaries......we have much to look forward to during the time of their rulership.

As John 3:13 says...
"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

So, no one experienced a spiritual resurrection before Christ offered his life. The transfiguration occurred before his death.

If Moses was truly resurrected in physical form, as the apostles witnessed, where is he now? Those who were promised a physical resurrection will live on earth. So either way, your proposition does not fit scripture.

In Hebrews 11:13, Paul speaks of the pre-Christian men and women of faith and says...
13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."

They knew that a better world was coming and saw themselves as aliens and temporary residents of this world. God's anointed one would guarantee that the promises about the Kingdom would be realized.....but none of them entertained a hope of going to heaven. That is something only Christ's disciples were offered....and all of the first Christians were Jews, fulfilling God's covenant with Abraham. Every part of scripture was written by Jews....but people of all nations would benefit from the Kingdom's rulership, as God had promised Abraham.

After giving the natural Jews every opportunity to become disciples of his son, God turned his attention to the Gentile nations to gather from them "a people for his name". (Acts 15:14) The congregations made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians Paul called "the Israel of God". (Galatians 6:16) This is spiritual Israel.


Paul taught the same things as Jesus showed. Paul says that the faithful in Christ will be raised from the dead first, as Moses was.

Moses was not raised from the dead...the transfiguration was a vision, shared by the three apostles. (Matthew 17:9) Jesus was the only real person in it. He was the anointed King of God's Kingdom and Moses represented the Law whilst Elijah represented the Prophets. It was very symbolic. Jesus existed from the glorious scene but no one else did.

That includes ALL the faithful who have ever lived. And then the living faithful will be taken up and changed to be immortal in the twinkling of an eye, as Elijah was. They will all meet in the air.

Well, as I understand it, Christ gave a sign of his "presence" (parousia) in Matthew 24:3-14 because it was not a visible event......and he also spoke about his "coming", which was to be a visible event, so we believe these are two separate events. No one saw the coronation of Christ in heaven except the prophet Daniel which he recorded about two thousand years before it even happened. (Daniel 7:13-14) His coming in Kingdom power was to take place "in the midst of his enemies" (Psalm 110:1-2) and the various features of the sign needed time to play out.
We are deep into the "last days" of the present system, having experienced all the features of the sign....we await the finale`. As part of the sign, Jesus said he would be "with" his disciples in the greatest preaching campaign in the history of mankind. The entire inhabited earth would receive a witness. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) This requires a large, dedicated army of preachers.

That represents the immortal kingdom of God which will come down from heaven.

Revelation 21:2-4 is a description of the Kingdom's coming to serve redeemed humanity.

" I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

God's rulership in the capable hands of his son and fellow heirs will bring the benefits of the Kingdom to all those who have suffered on this earth....but only if they search for God and obey his directives before it is too late.
"Just like the days of Noah" Jesus said...and here we are. (Matthew 24:37-39) What is the comparison?

Sometime after all the faithful in Christ have been made immortal by being raised from the dead or translated from among the living, there will be a development of believers in Jerusalem who will suffer persecution under the red dragon king. They will suffer because they refuse to worship the beast and his image.

This is again a bit muddled.

In his Revelation John saw two distinct groups benefiting from Christ's sacrifice.
Revelation 7:4...
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel."

This is spiritual Israel, "the Israel of God" not natural Israel who lost their place because of rejecting their Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39)

After seeing the 144,000 standing on heavenly Mt Zion with the Lamb, Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14 says...
"After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”. . . .In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So two groups receive salvation from God and the Lamb. The first group is numbered and who are in heaven....the second group are not. They are survivors of the great tribulation....which occurs at the very end of these last days on earth. (Matthew 24:21)

Those mortal men, the 144,000, will be the beginning of the kingdom of God to be established on earth after Jesus and his immortal saints have executed God's judgments upon His people and the nations.

The 144,000 are granted immortality but they are no longer humans...they have been transformed into spirit beings in order to rule with Christ in his Kingdom. Jesus will never be human again unless it is in materialized form as he was after his resurrection.

The immortal saints will be as the angels of God who operate behind the scenes. The mortal men(Jews) will be the visible kingdom by whom the restitution of all things will occur.

The immortal saints will be co-rulers with Jesus yes....the subjects of the kingdom will be the faithful followers of Jesus from all races nations and languages.....There is no need for any nationality anymore because all of earth's inhabitants will be one race as they were meant to be in the beginning....the human race...all of them serving one God and being of one religion.

In the big picture as I see it....Jesus came to buy back what Adam lost for his children. He paid for us with his own life, guaranteeing that everlasting life on earth, which was God's purpose in the beginning, will be accomplished at the end.
 
no man(flesh) see god and live
no man(flesh) ascends to heaven.

Elijah's body was translated from flesh to a heavenly(celestial) incorruptible body and as Moises was also resurrected with a heavenly body.

The resurrected and translated Elijah and Moises' bodies were not made of flesh and bones, but they were transfigured as heavenly bodies. They are no more humans so to speak but are mere heavenly beings.

They may not be in the Heaven of heavens (the place of the Holiest) yet, but they surely dwells in the 'air', in the clouds of heaven in a place prepared for them for now.
 
It was a vision...remember, afterward Jesus told those disciples with Him: “Tell the vision to no one.”
But the vision that was is real, the participant and the 3 witnesses were all alert and not dreaming. The fact that Peter made mention,

Matthew 17:4
Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you want, let’s make three tents here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

My only question was how could Peter recognise the Moses and the Elijah of the scriptures, he must've been up real close to them and knew their conversation.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
But the vision that was is real, the participant and the 3 witnesses were all alert and not dreaming. The fact that Peter made mention,

Matthew 17:4
Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you want, let’s make three tents here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

My only question was how could Peter recognise the Moses and the Elijah of the scriptures, he must've been up real close to them and knew their conversation.
Then, how was it a vision, exactly?

I’m sorry...the dead “know nothing”. Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Their “thoughts perish”. Psalms 146:3-4.

If there’s an immediate afterlife, if at death people immediately live in another realm....then what need is there for the Resurrection, which is a ‘bringing back to life’?

Jesus likened death to “sleep” (John 11:11-14), from which only Jesus can awaken them. John 5:28-29.

Take care.
 
We all knew something so significant took place, it ain't a vision exactly, the fact that Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone what they saw.

The Transfiguration was the glorification of the human body of Jesus. On this occasion His body underwent a change in form, a metamorphosis, so that it shone as brightly as the sun. At the time of the Transfiguration, Jesus' earthly ministry was coming to a close. He had acknowledged that He was the Messiah and predicted His death and resurrection. Now He was to reveal, to a select few, His divine glory.

The Bible gives this account:

Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother brought them up on a high mountain by themselves, and was transfigured before them. his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him . . . A bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear him!' And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, 'Arise, and do not be afraid.' And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only (Matthew 17:1-3,5-8).

Jesus told Peter, James, and John not to tell anyone about this until after He had risen from the dead.

Years Later Peter Recalled The Event

Some years later Simon Peter would write of this event:

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to him from the excellent glory: 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain (2 Peter 1:16-18).

Jesus Is The Son Of God

The Transfiguration provides further evidence that Jesus was the divine Son of God. It is not coincidental that this happened soon after Jesus had acknowledged Himself to be the Christ, the one who left heaven's glory to come to earth. Now three of His disciples were to get a glimpse of that glory.

The appearance of Moses and Elijah with Jesus is highly significant. The name Moses was equated with the Old Testament law that God had given to the people. Jesus came and fulfilled the commandments of the law and did the things the law could not do, that is, to provide an answer for the problem of sin. The law pointed out the problem; Jesus gave the solution.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (John 1:17).

Elijah was an outstanding figure in the Old Testament. He was a great prophet and his appearance with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration testified that Jesus fulfilled the prophets, as well as the law.

The voice of God the Father gave further confirmation of the calling and Sonship of Jesus. He acknowledged that Jesus had pleased Him in the things He had said and done.

It Represented His Coming Kingdom

The Transfiguration scene of Jesus is a representation of His coming kingdom in its fullness. Jesus Himself said to His disciples.

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:28).

The Transfiguration occurred with Jesus and three of His disciples - Peter, James, and John. Moses and Elijah miraculously appeared with Jesus. At the foot of the mountain were the remainder of Jesus' disciples and the multitudes.

When one considers the various individuals and groups involved, it paints a marvelous picture of Jesus' coming kingdom.

Jesus Himself

First, there is the Lord Jesus in His glorified body.

There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light (Matthew 17:2)

He will rule in His coming kingdom in His glorified body.

Moses

Moses, in his glorified body, represented the saved that will enter God's kingdom through death.

Elijah

Elijah never died. He represents those believers who enter the kingdom of God by the translation or the rapture of the church.

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality (1 Corinthians 15:50-53).

Jesus' Disciples

Peter, James, and John in their natural bodies depict those Jewish believers who will enter the coming kingdom.

The Various Nations That Will Make Up The Kingdom

The multitude of people, left at the base of the mountain, represent the various nations who will enter the kingdom of God in their natural or non-glorified bodies.

In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth (Isaiah 11:10-12).

Summary

The Transfiguration is significant because it was the glorification of the body of Jesus. Those with Him saw Jesus in His glory. The appearance of Moses and Elijah testified that Jesus was the one of whom the law and prophets spoke. The approving testimony of God the Father further confirmed the identity of Jesus.

In the Transfiguration of Jesus we have the various elements of the coming kingdom represented. There is the glorified King, those who will come into the kingdom through death, those who will come into the kingdom through the transformation of their bodies at the rapture of the church, those Jewish believers who will enter into the millennial reign of Christ in their earthly bodies, as well as the people from the various nations who will also enter into the millennium in non-glorified bodies.

What Was the Significance of Jesus' Transfiguration?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Mount Zion in Revelation is not on earth, it is a heavenly Mount Zion, just like the kingdom is called "heavenly Jerusalem". (Revelation 21:2-4) This is bringing Christ's rulership to mankind on earth, but the kingdom is heavenly.

To the Samaritan woman Jesus declared that no mountain on earth would be the seat of God's worship. (John 4:21-24)

I'm sorry but your scenario does not fit with what the Bible teaches. Jesus went to heaven 40 days after his resurrection. He told his disciples that he was going to "prepare a place for them" so that where he was, they would also be. It was in heaven.

The kingdom of God is no mystery, so according to scripture, can you tell me what you believe it is and what it will accomplish?

I believe that is an assumption and out of context because the New Jerusalem descends to earth. Since there is no mention of any other building in Revelations I believe it makes sense to view the New Jerusalem as that place prepared for us.So initially it is in the clouds but then descends to earth. Obviously it has not arrived yet or it would be visible.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Matthew 22:29-30
Jesus answered them, “You are mistaken because you don't know the Scriptures or God's power.John 20:9 For in the resurrection, people neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.1John 3:2

I believe if most people are on earth now through re-incarnation then why do we still marry nor given in marriage?

I believe if there is other explanation to it will likely be in error.

I believe if you really wish to respond then you ought to say something meaningful and you have not.
 
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