Lawyers Are Merely the Extension of Trump's Will

Stanyon said:

The way I understand the rules is that once they vote all accusers, accusations, and evidence can be cross examined also there can be investigations into the accusers themselves, I may be wrong.

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The minority party gains many of the rights the majority does when a vote is passed. Hence why a vote has not been passed. The GOP would start calling it's own witnesses and putting forward testimony including both about the Bidens. Dems do not want that as peach mints is for optics only and they know it.

shmogie said:

He will never have the power to be a dictator,

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BS. He's already acting like an above-the-law dictator. Ignoring subpoena's, ignoring document requests, directing regime members to not comply with an investigation....etc etc. These are all reasons to think he wants to be King of America.

and if he somehow tried to be one, the country would rise against him. It won´ t happen with Trump.

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The country already is rising against him. The Red Hatters will never rise against him unless Fox and their favorite RW media outlets do.

tytlyf said:

BS. He's already acting like an above-the-law dictator. Ignoring subpoena's, ignoring document requests, directing regime members to not comply with an investigation....etc etc. These are all reasons to think he wants to be King of America.


The country already is rising against him. The Red Hatters will never rise against him unless Fox and their favorite RW media outlets do.

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Do you not understand the legal concept of executive privilege ? Obama invoked it a number of times to block access to documents and witnesses.

The president has the right to declare documents and the testimony of witnesses as privileged, just like with A preist, pastor, lawyer or doctor.

Witnesses under executive privilege cannot respond to subpoenas.

In all cases, these conflicts must be resolved ultimately in court, one by one as and if the democrats file suit.

This is the first time Trump has invoked privilege, he totally and completely co operated with mueller.

He has decided that he will not cooperate with this star chamber democrat secret inquisition.

I don´t blame him.

shmogie said:

Do you not understand the legal concept of executive privilege ? Obama invoked it a number of times to block access to documents and witnesses.

The president has the right to declare documents and the testimony of witnesses as privileged, just like with A preist, pastor, lawyer or doctor.

Witnesses under executive privilege cannot respond to subpoenas.

In all cases, these conflicts must be resolved ultimately in court, one by one as and if the democrats file suit.

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My understanding is that a President can't invoke executive privilege when a crime has been committed. As far as court filings, are you aware that Trump's lawyers have claimed that not only can the President not be indicted, he can't even be investigated? That's basically arguing that a President is completely above the law.

This is the first time Trump has invoked privilege, he totally and completely co operated with mueller.

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Except for all the times Trump campaign staff lied and destroyed evidence.

He has decided that he will not cooperate with this star chamber democrat secret inquisition.

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You should realize why the Dems in the House have not called for a vote yet. With the last two impeachments (Nixon and Clinton) there was a special prosecutor who conducted the initial investigatory phase and submitted a final report to Congress. Once those reports were reviewed, the House voted to begin impeachment hearings. In this case, no such investigation was conducted because Trump's AG William Barr declined to have the DoJ conduct one. Thus it fell upon the House to initiate and carry out the initial investigation. So just as a special prosecutor would collect testimony and documents via a "secret" grand jury, the House is doing the same via their processes. If those processes generate sufficient evidence to move forward to the next phase (actual impeachment), then the evidence will be made available to everyone, including Republicans and the administration.

Typical RF response: “I hate Trump. Even though he’s using the court system to object to subpoenas, etc, he’s a dictator!”

Jose Fly said:

My understanding is that a President can't invoke executive privilege when a crime has been committed. As far as court filings, are you aware that Trump's lawyers have claimed that not only can the President not be indicted, he can't even be investigated? That's basically arguing that a President is completely above the law.


Except for all the times Trump campaign staff lied and destroyed evidence.


You should realize why the Dems in the House have not called for a vote yet. With the last two impeachments (Nixon and Clinton) there was a special prosecutor who conducted the initial investigatory phase and submitted a final report to Congress. Once those reports were reviewed, the House voted to begin impeachment hearings. In this case, no such investigation was conducted because Trump's AG William Barr declined to have the DoJ conduct one. Thus it fell upon the House to initiate and carry out the initial investigation. So just as a special prosecutor would collect testimony and documents via a "secret" grand jury, the House is doing the same via their processes. If those processes generate sufficient evidence to move forward to the next phase (actual impeachment), then the evidence will be made available to everyone, including Republicans and the administration.

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You state again that during the mueller investigation , witnesses lied and documents were destroyed. What documents were those ?

Who cares what Trumps lawyers have claimed ? The court will deal with their ideaś.

Pelosi and Schiff have said that Schiffs is conducting in impeachment inquiry. Numerous times.

In both the Nixon and Clinton impeachments, the House voted on conducting an impeachment inquiry. The people through their representatives decided. Not just the speaker of the House.

Further, the hearings of the impeachent inquiry were transparent, both the majority and minority had subpoena power, and the presidents lawyer could ask questions.

This star chamber inquiry denies the minority subpoena power, is not transparent, and denies the presidents lawyer to be in the room.

What happens in a grand jury is totally irrelevant to an impeachment inquiry. A grand jury proceeding identifies a crime and suspect for trial.

An impeachment inquiry determines if their is enough evidence for an investigation by the house, who then can effect a trial in the senate.

So, an impeachment inquiry is totally different from a grand jury. One sends a suspect to trial, the other determines if there is enough evidence to begin an investigation by the house.

This so called inquiry is just another democrat fishing expedition, held in secret, under absolute control by democrats, so they can call witnesses they think will have the dirt they want, and if they don´t, no one will know it. They have ensured that the Republicans cannot call witnesses to counter democrat claims.

Schiff, known as one of the biggest leakers in Washington, leaks pieces of testimony out of context to favorite reporters, while screaming about what he will do to those who break the rule of secrecy in the intelligence committee.

A wonderfully designed total smear machine where the public is totally denied the truth. This star chamber proceeding will continue till the 2020 election, for it is a campaign ploy to create propaganda in favor of democrat candidates and to protect democrats in Republican districts from having to vote on anything related to impeachent. It also appeases the vitriolic lefties who demand impeachment, who think the star chamber is actually working toward that goal.

Machiavelli´s Prince could not have designed anything more devious, or pitiful.

shmogie said:

You state again that during the mueller investigation , witnesses lied and documents were destroyed. What documents were those ?

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Emails and texts regarding members of the Trump campaign meeting with Russians. They lied about meeting the Russians as well.

Who cares what Trumps lawyers have claimed ?

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As a US citizen, I care what sort of legal arguments the President makes in court. That this President believes he is entirely above the law is deeply concerning to me.

Pelosi and Schiff have said that Schiffs is conducting in impeachment inquiry. Numerous times.

In both the Nixon and Clinton impeachments, the House voted on conducting an impeachment inquiry. The people through their representatives decided. Not just the speaker of the House.

Further, the hearings of the impeachent inquiry were transparent, both the majority and minority had subpoena power, and the presidents lawyer could ask questions.

This star chamber inquiry denies the minority subpoena power, is not transparent, and denies the presidents lawyer to be in the room.

What happens in a grand jury is totally irrelevant to an impeachment inquiry. A grand jury proceeding identifies a crime and suspect for trial.

An impeachment inquiry determines if their is enough evidence for an investigation by the house, who then can effect a trial in the senate.

So, an impeachment inquiry is totally different from a grand jury. One sends a suspect to trial, the other determines if there is enough evidence to begin an investigation by the house.

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I didn't say the House investigation was exactly like a grand jury, I said it was akin to one, in that it is part of the investigative phase of the inquiry. With the Nixon and Clinton impeachments, a special prosecutor carried out the investigative phase, and did so largely "in secret". Since Trump's DoJ declined to conduct an investigation, it fell to the House to do it, and that's exactly what they're doing. Once the investigative phase is finished, the impeachment will move on to the next phase which will be a public process and contain all the more familiar elements you're calling for.

And I'm sure at that point you and the other members of Team Trump will drop the whole "it's all secret" thing and move on to whining about something else, because if you had your way, none of this would ever have been investigated in the first place.

This so called inquiry is just another democrat fishing expedition, held in secret, under absolute control by democrats, so they can call witnesses they think will have the dirt they want, and if they don´t, no one will know it. They have ensured that the Republicans cannot call witnesses to counter democrat claims.

Schiff, known as one of the biggest leakers in Washington, leaks pieces of testimony out of context to favorite reporters, while screaming about what he will do to those who break the rule of secrecy in the intelligence committee.

A wonderfully designed total smear machine where the public is totally denied the truth. This star chamber proceeding will continue till the 2020 election, for it is a campaign ploy to create propaganda in favor of democrat candidates and to protect democrats in Republican districts from having to vote on anything related to impeachent. It also appeases the vitriolic lefties who demand impeachment, who think the star chamber is actually working toward that goal.

Machiavelli´s Prince could not have designed anything more devious, or pitiful.

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Um.....yeah.....never mind that Trump not only clearly did what he's accused of.....never mind that he did it again in plain sight......never mind that his Chief of Staff said they do this sort of thing "all the time".....it's all those pesky Democrats' fault!!!

I mean, what exactly is your real argument here? Do you think it's just fine for a President to use aid to pressure another country to do him personal political favors? Do you think it's just fine for a President to put his personal lawyer at the point on foreign policy (and in doing so that lawyer ends up working with some very, very shady characters)? Do you think no one should ever have investigated this whole thing in the first place?

Jose Fly said:

Emails and texts regarding members of the Trump campaign meeting with Russians. They lied about meeting the Russians as well.


As a US citizen, I care what sort of legal arguments the President makes in court. That this President believes he is entirely above the law is deeply concerning to me.


I didn't say the House investigation was exactly like a grand jury, I said it was akin to one, in that it is part of the investigative phase of the inquiry. With the Nixon and Clinton impeachments, a special prosecutor carried out the investigative phase, and did so largely "in secret". Since Trump's DoJ declined to conduct an investigation, it fell to the House to do it, and that's exactly what they're doing. Once the investigative phase is finished, the impeachment will move on to the next phase which will be a public process and contain all the more familiar elements you're calling for.

And I'm sure at that point you and the other members of Team Trump will drop the whole "it's all secret" thing and move on to whining about something else, because if you had your way, none of this would ever have been investigated in the first place.



Um.....yeah.....never mind that Trump not only clearly did what he's accused of.....never mind that he did it again in plain sight......never mind that his Chief of Staff said they do this sort of thing "all the time".....it's all those pesky Democrats' fault!!!

I mean, what exactly is your real argument here? Do you think it's just fine for a President to use aid to pressure another country to do him personal political favors? Do you think it's just fine for a President to put his personal lawyer at the point on foreign policy (and in doing so that lawyer ends up working with some very, very shady characters)? Do you think no one should ever have investigated this whole thing in the first place?

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How could he pressure a country, when it´s, president didn´t even know it had been temporarily withheld ?

It is quid pro quo, not quid pro 0.

Ukraine was highly involved in the election tampering of 2016, Zalesky and Trump signed a pact to root out corruption in Ukraine and in America where it is related.

A vice presidents son was being paid $50,000 per month, to be on the board of a corrupt oil company, with no experience in the industry, and only attended four meetings a year. His father is happily on the record for a quid pro quo, fire someone in your country I want fired, or you get no aid.

The president has every right to look into possible corruption by Americans overseas, and certainly there is at least a prima facie case that the whole thing should be looked into.

Do you think being a candidate exempts you and your family being looked at because what you have done stinks ? Trump got the treatment real good when he was a candidate.

It is not at all unprecedented for the president to use a private person for specific tasks, yes, even his lawyer.

Giuliani virtually obliterated the mafia in NY as a federal prosecutor, who better to go to Ukraine to assess the corruption there, and American involvement in it ? Yes, I know from experience that investigations can put you in contact with shady characters.

What you don´t seem to understand is that an impeachment inquiry should be done by the vote of the house, be public, allow both parties to call witnesses, and have the president represented.

Having an impeachment inquiry under these conditions, to then have an impeachment inquiry properly after, is totally unprecedented and totally unfair to the American people.

Trying to reverse an election by the people requires the people be involved. They are not either by their representatives, or by their observation of what is occurring.

This should be handled in the judiciary committee as precedent dictates. If classified information arises, which hasn´t happened in the star chamber apparently, it can be heard en camera.

The whole purpose of the intelligence committee being used is to screen the proceedings from the people.

What do I want? open to the public proceedings, established precedent to be followed.

shmogie said:

Ukraine was highly involved in the election tampering of 2016,

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There is no evidence of this absurd and thoroughly debunked conspiracy theory.

shmogie said:

How could he pressure a country, when it´s, president didn´t even know it had been temporarily withheld ?

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Seriously? The President of Ukraine says "We're ready to buy some military equipment" and Trump immediately responds "I need a favor though", and you're completely baffled why anyone would think those two statements are connected?

Ukraine was highly involved in the election tampering of 2016, Zalesky and Trump signed a pact to root out corruption in Ukraine and in America where it is related.

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I told you before, I don't buy into Hannity's nonsensical conspiracy theories.

A vice presidents son was being paid $50,000 per month, to be on the board of a corrupt oil company, with no experience in the industry, and only attended four meetings a year. His father is happily on the record for a quid pro quo, fire someone in your country I want fired, or you get no aid.

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Okay, lets get this straight right now.

Do you acknowledge that Joe Biden was acting with the support of the EU, the IMF, and congressmen from both parties?

Do you acknowledge that the reason all those entities wanted Ukraine to get rid of the prosecutor was because he wasn't investigating corruption?

Once you address those, we'll move on to the other items.

The president has every right to look into possible corruption by Americans overseas, and certainly there is at least a prima facie case that the whole thing should be looked into.

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So you think it's a coincidence that the only potentially corrupt person Trump deemed worthy of getting other countries to investigate just happened to be his chief political rival?

Of all the people in the world, of all the corruption in the world....the Bidens are at the top of the list?

Do you think being a candidate exempts you and your family being looked at because what you have done stinks ? Trump got the treatment real good when he was a candidate.

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Do you think Trump should pressure China to investigate Ivanka and how she got a bunch of copyrights in that country soon after Donald became President?

Should we be investigating how Jared Kushner got put in charge of major government policies, even though he wasn't qualified to do so?

It is not at all unprecedented for the president to use a private person for specific tasks, yes, even his lawyer.

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Show one example of a President putting his personal lawyer in charge of foreign policy.

Also, was Giuliani a paid government employee?

Giuliani virtually obliterated the mafia in NY as a federal prosecutor, who better to go to Ukraine to assess the corruption there, and American involvement in it ? Yes, I know from experience that investigations can put you in contact with shady characters.

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Dude....they were his clients! And they're now under arrest for allegedly funneling Russian money into US elections.

But no.....nothing shady at all there...

What you don´t seem to understand is that an impeachment inquiry should be done by the vote of the house, be public, allow both parties to call witnesses, and have the president represented.

Having an impeachment inquiry under these conditions, to then have an impeachment inquiry properly after, is totally unprecedented and totally unfair to the American people.

Trying to reverse an election by the people requires the people be involved. They are not either by their representatives, or by their observation of what is occurring.

This should be handled in the judiciary committee as precedent dictates. If classified information arises, which hasn´t happened in the star chamber apparently, it can be heard en camera.

The whole purpose of the intelligence committee being used is to screen the proceedings from the people.

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All that will be done once the investigation phase is complete. But I'm sure you'll have a whole new set of objections by then.

What do I want? open to the public proceedings, established precedent to be followed.

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We're already into unprecedented territory, with no special prosecutor or DoJ investigation. That's why the House has to do it.

shmogie said:

He has decided that he will not cooperate with this star chamber democrat secret inquisition.

I don´t blame him.

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Ignoring subpoenas is an impeachable offense.

tytlyf said:

Ignoring subpoenas is an impeachable offense.

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Not till the claim of executive privilege is adjudicated.

shmogie said:

A dictator ? Complete and total control of every aspect of American life ? You are afflicted with terminal hyperbole !

You do realize that the so called resist and impeach ideas, adopted by most democrats in Congress, and by the biggest mouthed deocrats began before Trump ever took office, don´t you ?

How in hell can he co operate and unify when the democrats have vowed never to cooperate ?

Unify, tell me about that. Domestically I have no interest in forming a union with those who despise me, want to limit my Constitutional rights, slaughter innocent babieś, want to raise taxes and shove socialism down my throat.

The modern democrat party wants the government, their government, to intrude into every aspect of life. They want open borders, and higher taxes and wealth redistribution.

As Margaret Thatcher said "socialism is wonderful, till you run out of other peoples money".

Scared citizens elected..................?

No, we were sick of political family dynasties who promised much and delivered little. We were sick of the nanny state and its creeping strangulation of freedom.

Personally, I was a Ted Cruz supporter, and was quite pissed at how the party hierarchy allowed democrats and knot heads to vote in the primaries which should have been reserved for Republicans only.

No matter, I would vote for Donald Duck before a Clinton, any one of that family crime syndicate.

So, don´t whine about compromise and being brought together, your side promised on election day that neither would happen.

The precedent has been set. When a democrat president is elected, another resist movement will be born, you wanted a cultural civil war, you have it.

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If Americans were so sick of political famiy dynasties they why did they elect a crime boss family to the White House?

shmogie said:

Do you not understand the legal concept of executive privilege ? Obama invoked it a number of times to block access to documents and witnesses.

The president has the right to declare documents and the testimony of witnesses as privileged, just like with A preist, pastor, lawyer or doctor.

Witnesses under executive privilege cannot respond to subpoenas.

In all cases, these conflicts must be resolved ultimately in court, one by one as and if the democrats file suit.

This is the first time Trump has invoked privilege, he totally and completely co operated with mueller.

He has decided that he will not cooperate with this star chamber democrat secret inquisition.

I don´t blame him.

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Trump totally and completely cooperated with Mueller?
Come on, tell us another one.

You can't seriously believe that. Tell me, when did he tesify again? He kept saying he was dying to do it.

shmogie said:

He will never have the power to be a dictator, and if he somehow tried to be one, the country would rise against him. It won´ t happen with Trump.

So, he thinks he knows best, an idiotic mindset to ignore advisers.

It isn´t new, JFK ignored his advisers and withdrew the air support he had promised for the bay of pigs operation, at the last minute, and got many hundreds slaughtered, any more hundreds imprisoned till they died.

He also bonked anything with a skirt on in the white house, so he was just as totally depraved as Trump.

The point ? Every president in one way or another has tried to grab power, and many were arrogant SOBs who dictated to their advisers.

I get it, you hate Trump with every fiber of your being, but don´t try and pretend he is the only president who didn´t listen to advisers, or is arrogant. He may be the the worst, but the chicken little the sky is falling act is getting old.

I have heard it many, many times in the past. It wasn´t true then, and it isn´t now.

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The sky is falling on the heads of the Kurds Trump abandoned. He is a stain on our nation. I will never be so apathetic as to forget the damage he is doing.

I remember when Obama ran against Romney I was mildly unconcerned if Romney would win. I'm an Independent who expects a basic level of intelligence and compassion from my representatives. Trump is a disgrace.

sealchan said:

The sky is falling on the heads of the Kurds Trump abandoned. He is a stain on our nation. I will never be so apathetic as to forget the damage he is doing.

I remember when Obama ran against Romney I was mildly unconcerned if Romney would win. I'm an Independent who expects a basic level of intelligence and compassion from my representatives. Trump is a disgrace.

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You have an opinion, good for you.

SkepticThinker said:

Trump totally and completely cooperated with Mueller?
Come on, tell us another one.

You can't seriously believe that. Tell me, when did he tesify again? He kept saying he was dying to do it.

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He never invoked executive privilege over any document or witness. Over one million pages of documents, and access to every witness Mueller asked for was provided.

Only an idiot attorney or an idiot client would allow testimony under oath when the client was the target of an investigation. That is why there is the 5th Amendment.

Slick Willy got nailed for perjury because he thought he was smarter than those questioning him.

shmogie said:

He never invoked executive privilege over any document or witness. Over one million pages of documents, and access to every witness Mueller asked for was provided.

Only an idiot attorney or an idiot client would allow testimony under oath when the client was the target of an investigation. That is why there is the 5th Amendment.

Slick Willy got nailed for perjury because he thought he was smarter than those questioning him.

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Keep telling yourself that, I guess.

It's not like he's stonewalling the impeachment inquiry either, right?

SkepticThinker said:

Keep telling yourself that, I guess.

It's not like he's stonewalling the impeachment inquiry either, right?

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He has the RIGHT to invoke executive privilege.

I am not telling myself anything. Mueller got everything he asked for from the executive branch.