Spartan
Well-Known Member
I trust Jews for Jesus over the screw Jesus mindset.
Jesus the Messiah can't be of all male biological descent from King David if he's God incarnate / the Son of God.
http://menorah.org/Messiah to be God-Divine.pdf
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Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
I trust Jews for Jesus over the screw Jesus mindset.
Jesus the Messiah can't be of all male biological descent from King David if he's God incarnate / the Son of God.
http://menorah.org/Messiah to be God-Divine.pdf
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That is a very odd thing for a Baha'i to say. Do Baha'is believe that any of the many sects and denominations of Christianity, including Jews for Jesus, has the truth about God? Many believe that Jesus rose physically from the dead. Many believe Satan is real. Many believed in a literal Flood and Creation story. Many believe it is only through Jesus that a person can be saved and get their sins forgiven. Many believe God is a Trinity. Many believe it is Jesus that is returning. None of them believe Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ.
So for you, the Baha'i, don't you teach against all those things these Christian groups teach? But when you do it, it is to bring the truth that has been lost back into religion?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So you don't know. You only know what the Baha'i Faith tells you to believe? You are here claiming Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies of every major religion. I show you verses from Revelation and now Daniel that are problematic to what the Baha'i Faith teaches and you can't answer them. Okay. Daniel clearly says...
Should be easy to show the verses that justify why you take the 2300 evenings and nights and start it from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. It just sounds like an old switcharoo to me. And a continuation of how you blow off direct questions with a barrage of evasive maneuvers. Yes, I perfectly understand. It is clear to you, or, I should say it is clear enough to you, and it, therefore, should be clear enough to everybody else. So... what good is it to ask Baha'is any questions about controversial issues? You are essentially saying, "We're right, so get over it and accept it already."
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Hey Self. I found this. Does it help you figure out all these numbers and calculations?
DANIEL'S PROPHECIES Revised February 1996
From time to time, questions are raised by the Bahá'ís about the interpretation of the Biblical prophecies contained in the following verses in Daniel 12:11-12:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
To assist the friends in their study of this subject, the Research Department has prepared a summary of the elucidations contained in the Writings of Abdu'l-Bahá and the letters written by or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi on this theme. Three main issues are addressed: the interpretation of 1,290 days; the interpretation of 1,335 days; and the date of the commencement of the "hundred lunar years", which, as mentioned by Shoghi Effendi in "God Passes By" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), page 151, will precede the consummation of the 1,335 days.
1. 1,290 Days
In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.
Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.
From time to time, questions are raised by the Bahá'ís about the interpretation of the Biblical prophecies contained in the following verses in Daniel 12:11-12:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
To assist the friends in their study of this subject, the Research Department has prepared a summary of the elucidations contained in the Writings of Abdu'l-Bahá and the letters written by or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi on this theme. Three main issues are addressed: the interpretation of 1,290 days; the interpretation of 1,335 days; and the date of the commencement of the "hundred lunar years", which, as mentioned by Shoghi Effendi in "God Passes By" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), page 151, will precede the consummation of the 1,335 days.
1. 1,290 Days
In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.
Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.
Gee thanks Self, this really does help. I see that the 1290 days are starting from when the sacrifice was taken away. But the Baha'is start it from the proclamation of Muhammad? And they make it a lunar year? And this proclamation took place 10 years before the Hegira. So that makes everything work out to the year they want, 1863. But they use the Hegira as the starting point for all the 1260 year prophecies they claim to have fulfilled? How do they justify doing that? I don't know. Should I ask Tony? Are you kidding? Like he's going to give you a straight answer. But, here's some more stuff about the 1335 day prophecy from Daniel.
Two Tablets revealed by `Abdu'l-Bahá which are published in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá" (Haifa: 1922), by Lady Blomfield and Shoghi Effendi, provide interpretations of the 1,335 days referred to by Daniel:
Now concerning the verse in Daniel, the interpretation whereof thou didst ask, namely, "Blessed is he who cometh unto the thousand three hundred and thirty five days". These days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years. For according to this calculation a century will have elapsed from the dawn of the Sun of Truth, then will the teachings of God be firmly established upon the earth, and the Divine Light shall flood the world from the East even unto the West. Then, on this day, will the faithful rejoice! (p. 31)
O servant of God! The afore mentioned a thousand three hundred and thirty-five years must be reckoned from the day of the flight of His Holiness Muhammad, the Apostle of God, (Hegira) salutations and blessings rest upon Him, at the close of which time the signs of the rise, the glory, the exaltation, the spread of the Word of God throughout the East and the West shall appear. (p. 31)
Thereafter, the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the end of the Ten Year Crusade. For example, in a letter dated 9 February 1953 on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a group of Bahá'ís, his secretary wrote:
The purpose of the Conferences1 will be the world-wide propagation of the Faith. They will lay the foundations of the service of the Bahá'ís of the world for the great Ten Year Crusade ahead -- which, God willing, will be consummated in the fulfilment of the prophecies of Daniel, and the achievement of the initial goals set by `Abdu'l-Bahá in the Tablets of the Divine Plan, whereby the world will be flooded with the Glory of the Lord.
And, in a letter dated 11 May 1956 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, we find the following statement:
...when we fulfil the Ten Year Crusade, we will have brought into fulfilment Daniel's great prophecy of "Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days".
Well Self, I don't get it. Now the Baha'is are making a Crusade they had the fulfillment of Daniel's 1335 day prophecy? Now I know why they can say they have fulfilled all the prophecies. No matter what the number is... they can juggle it to fit anything. I guess Tony is right. It's up to me and you Self. How much more sensible can the Baha'is make it. They switch from solar to lunar years. They start everything, but one, from the Hegira. It all adds up. The Baha'is are absolutely right in their own minds. How can anyone argue with that? Now concerning the verse in Daniel, the interpretation whereof thou didst ask, namely, "Blessed is he who cometh unto the thousand three hundred and thirty five days". These days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years. For according to this calculation a century will have elapsed from the dawn of the Sun of Truth, then will the teachings of God be firmly established upon the earth, and the Divine Light shall flood the world from the East even unto the West. Then, on this day, will the faithful rejoice! (p. 31)
O servant of God! The afore mentioned a thousand three hundred and thirty-five years must be reckoned from the day of the flight of His Holiness Muhammad, the Apostle of God, (Hegira) salutations and blessings rest upon Him, at the close of which time the signs of the rise, the glory, the exaltation, the spread of the Word of God throughout the East and the West shall appear. (p. 31)
Thereafter, the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the end of the Ten Year Crusade. For example, in a letter dated 9 February 1953 on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a group of Bahá'ís, his secretary wrote:
The purpose of the Conferences1 will be the world-wide propagation of the Faith. They will lay the foundations of the service of the Bahá'ís of the world for the great Ten Year Crusade ahead -- which, God willing, will be consummated in the fulfilment of the prophecies of Daniel, and the achievement of the initial goals set by `Abdu'l-Bahá in the Tablets of the Divine Plan, whereby the world will be flooded with the Glory of the Lord.
And, in a letter dated 11 May 1956 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, we find the following statement:
...when we fulfil the Ten Year Crusade, we will have brought into fulfilment Daniel's great prophecy of "Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days".
That is fair enough, if you see it that way. I saw names and further sources to find more names at the links I provided.
To me it is clear that the history of faith has shown that a Messenger, who at the beginning gains a few follower's, soon faces the persecution of the rulers, religious divines and peoples of the day. It is really an undeniable scenario.
You are correct to a certain level, as the Name that lives on, and that is embraced by a majority is that of God's Messenger. The persecutors pass way and are mostly forgotten. The links did provide identities to some of those people, but who are they but names mostly forgotten? History recorded them as a stern warning! It would be more accurate, on the broader scale to say history has recorded the events surrounding the persecution of the Messengers, which includes a few names.
In each age it is always the same, and the leaders of the persecution in this age have also been recorded, their misguided flocks long dead and forgotten, Wheras the martyrs are the hero's and their names live on in the Spirit of all that is good.
Peace be with you
Regards Tony
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kjw47
Well-Known Member
God says one MUST have truth. It is his will-John 4:22-24-- what a true followers heart instructs their minds to do 24/7, 365 without fail.
Written prayers do not come from the heart.. They are just words being spoken. Assuradly the words Lennon referred to with---- Words are flying out like endless rain into a paper cup, they slither while they pass they slip away across the universe. God requires from ones heart.
Obeying every utterance from God= 95%-- lip service = 5%
kjw47
Well-Known Member
You best learn what the bible actually teaches. God destroys all serving false gods. There are examples in the bible, how did you miss them?
The true God says---This is my son the beloved in whom I am well pleased--LISTEN TO HIM. He did not say maybe--its his will. Do the Muslims use the NT--then they have rejected Gods Messiah--they have lost.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I studied both sides as well, but one makes a rather serious mistake when they perceive it as being an objective source versus a subjective one. Belief in God is a belief, enhanced through the Holy Spirit, imo, but simply not an objectively-derived fact.
Actually, they don't on the objective level. Any serious theologian will admit we simply cannot in any way use objective sources to somehow prove God, but through our faith we can accept God.
This is really quite basic if one actually does the studying using an objective approach.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Do you believe that Jesus taught us to "judge ye not"? If so, then let me highly recommend you practice it or one is likely believe that you don't actually believe in Jesus but merely offer him lip-service. On the cross Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do", and that prayer to God was for those not of our faith.
IOW, please let God be the judge, not you nor I.
Do you say the Lords Prayer with heart and Soul! That is Written, recorded as given from God and Biblical.
What better prayers can we offer but with the words God has given us to pray with?
Of course you are free to see it how you wish, but I would offer one should not neglect such prayers, that focus us on what we should be asking for, over preference of one's own agenda and one's own perceived spirituality.
Regards Tony
Are you not aware that is also the Message of Muhammad?
Muhammad came to Idol worshippers to turn them away from Idols back to the Love of our One God.
At the same time Muhammad corrected Christians that were making Jesus God in false doctrine, making their own concept of God.
Muhammad recorded that correction in the Quran.
Jesus was a Messenger Annointed by God with the Holy Spirit and a Message. That showed us Jesus was 'Christ'. It is Christ that is the Name by which we are all saved.
We should thank Muhammad and the Christ Message He gave from our One God, which means 'Allah'.
As a JW, I am aware you can not consider this to be so, they are the choices we have in this life.
Peace be with you and all, God bless,
Regards Tony
Antisthenes
New Member
"Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?"
First of all you refer to the NT which didn't exist at the time of the "presumed" Jesus.
As for the OT, if you read the Torah, the Jews were expecting specific events and testimonies to occur in order to denote that THAT ONE was the Messiah!
And in the Jewish tradition, they were expecting a military leader rather than a "spiritual rabbi"! In their scriptures there were some presuppositions that Jesus didn't fulfil at all despite the falsifications and all efforts Christians made!
The fact that he was rejected may lay on two points!
1. He didn't do a good job and failed in persuading the Jews -because he came ONLY for the Jews!
2. He wasn't a real Messiah, but he was "fabricated" much later based on the "ancient archetype" see (
Rank-Raglan mythotype (sometimes called the hero archetypes)
https://www.bing.com/search…
The Nag Hammadi scriptures, reveal a simple teacher and not a God's son and he even asserted that he wasn't any teacher or wise man either!
First of all you refer to the NT which didn't exist at the time of the "presumed" Jesus.
As for the OT, if you read the Torah, the Jews were expecting specific events and testimonies to occur in order to denote that THAT ONE was the Messiah!
And in the Jewish tradition, they were expecting a military leader rather than a "spiritual rabbi"! In their scriptures there were some presuppositions that Jesus didn't fulfil at all despite the falsifications and all efforts Christians made!
The fact that he was rejected may lay on two points!
1. He didn't do a good job and failed in persuading the Jews -because he came ONLY for the Jews!
2. He wasn't a real Messiah, but he was "fabricated" much later based on the "ancient archetype" see (
Rank-Raglan mythotype (sometimes called the hero archetypes)
https://www.bing.com/search…
The Nag Hammadi scriptures, reveal a simple teacher and not a God's son and he even asserted that he wasn't any teacher or wise man either!
kjw47
Well-Known Member
I see your opinion. Here is what God commands---This is my son the beloved in whom I am well pleased-LISTEN TO HIM. This is the only way to stay on the correct path. One can only get to the Father if they listen to the son. There is no other way in the bible. Pardon my error. It does mention blind guides. They don't listen to the son.
The teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
I didn't judge. The bible is clear on matters. It has judged. I just stated a fact--They do not use the NT. They do not listen to Jesus. Jesus is the only way to the true living God.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Yes Jesus gave us an example prayer. He put his Father in heaven-FIRST. Then asked for self. Many say that prayer but few actually know it.--Hallowed be thy name=YHVH(Jehovah) Thy Kingdom come= Father. Some translations end it with-The kingdom, power and glory( all belong to the Father.)
Everything Jesus gives is good because its his Fathers will.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
I understand many things off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21) are made to look loving, sharing, whatever it takes to mislead. Thing filled with pleasure to the mortal heart. Its done like this-2Cor 11:12-15)-- satan and his teachers transform into angel of light.
The encyclopedias are filled with facts of pagan false god worship practices included in both celebrations they hand to Jesus. Will Jesus accept things off the table of demons just because its disguised as his birthday celebration? Or Easter? The world that Jesus taught to be no part of practice things with the table of demons included. Those that must fit in do as well. Facts are not enough for them to be different, even hated Jesus said will occur. One who is no part of this world is different. Not accepted.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If you are willing to trust known liars, it shows great naivete on your part.
Then he can't be the messiah. That's kind of the whole point.[/QUOTE]
Isaiah 52:10 (Yeshua Elohim) the Spirit of Salvation is put into a holy vessel (Isaiah 52:11), which shall be among its people (Isaiah 52:12).
Psalms 89:19-21 where David is appointed as a holy vessel of the Lord, is paraphrased in Isaiah 52:13-14; where it doesn't translate as 'marred', it says 'anointed' like David said in the Psalm.
When Psalms 89:21 is saying the Lord's arm shall strengthen him, In Isaiah 52:10, Isaiah 53:1 these both contain the arm of the Lord, and act as pointers, where they identify the context is contained within.
Basically the Spirit of the Lord's Salvation, was put into his Right Arm here on earth in the Flesh of David; which is why he was symbolically named 'Yehoshua for he shall deliver his people'.
David is clearly defined as the Messiah to come in the Messianic Age (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7)...
Since Isaiah 53:12 says 'he shall share his inheritance', Yeshua was therefore David.
As for Kings closing their mouth (Isaiah 52:15), it depends if they listen to what they haven't been told.
In my opinion.
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Spartan
Well-Known Member
You've bought into a lie. The Messiah is to be God and that link documented it. Jeremiah 23:5-6 speaks of the "Branch' (an idiom for the Messiah), and that he would be the Lord (God) our righteousness.
http://menorah.org/Messiah to be God-Divine.pdf