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The Morality Of God's Grand Design

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I haven't the faintest idea. I guess it would depend on the nature of the god. Maybe he's exempt. :shrug:


.

So if there were a God who exempts himself from the very laws of nature in which he/she/it/they would have created, then there'd be no telling by us humans what this supernatural being could be like. In other words, there'd be no way for us to figure out this God's nature . Hence, such a God would be utterly senseless and meaningless.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Can God be immoral ? Whether you are an Arian or Trinitarian, Christs life and teachings are Gods morality.
For the sake of discussion, here is a parallel non-religious example.

Is it possible for a soldier in the field to *objectively* judge whether or not their Commander is moral without radio or other communication mechanism? I say, they can't. Lack of information. A person needs facts in order to make an objective judgement of morality.

I think that it's the same situation with us, as created beings, trying to judge God's morality. In order judge the morality of an omniscient being, a person would need to be omniscient themselves. And this IMHO, is the flaw in the argument presented in the OP.

The OP asks how can an omniscient God be moral? My answer is: a person would need to be omniscient to know for sure.

It's an argument based on logic, not scripture.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
shmogie said:
I see you use very obscure translations, at least to the lay researcher, some antiques too.

The NKJV, New English, ESV, RSV, and NIV, say your obscure older translations are wrong.

These versions are based upon the most up to date scholarship.

Note you find NEW or REVISED as a description of all but one.

These are the most common Bibles in use today, because they are more accurate and correct versions.

Prove from the Bible that God is omniscient, that is, He knows all that will ever be possible to know, past, present, future, right now. Further, this knowledge must not be coupled to an intent to act, or an action, as these reflect omnipotence, not omniscience.
And I've put you in such a corner that I've got you . . . . .

goalposts.jpg
.....
laughing-dog-smiley-emoticon.gif


Have a good day.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Could you please cite the Bible verses you are using ? Otherwise there is no way to determine what is your thought, and what is Biblical.

Thanks !
Fixed it for you (see above). Many don't like a lot of verses thrown in -so I usually just put some in quotes for people to look up if interested -gets lengthy, too
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Fixed it for you (see above). Many don't like a lot of verses thrown in -so I usually just put some in quotes for people to look up if interested -gets lengthy, too
For the sake of discussion, here is a parallel non-religious example.

Is it possible for a soldier in the field to *objectively* judge whether or not their Commander is moral without radio or other communication mechanism? I say, they can't. Lack of information. A person needs facts in order to make an objective judgement of morality.

I think that it's the same situation with us, as created beings, trying to judge God's morality. In order judge the morality of an omniscient being, a person would need to be omniscient themselves. And this IMHO, is the flaw in the argument presented in the OP.

The OP asks how can an omniscient God be moral? My answer is: a person would need to be omniscient to know for sure.

It's an argument based on logic, not scripture.
So then, without scripture to reveal this God, wouldn´t his observed acts contribute to the judgement of this god ? If there have been no observable acts, and no revelation through scripture, what are you left with ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Thats a load of codswallop, translations are based on what people want to hear. Which is the reason that there are hundreds of current translations and every one subtly (or in the case of a few, not so subtly) different.
Obviously, you have no insight into Hebrew or Bible scholarship. Some translators in these fields are even atheists, yet they translate based upon current understandings of words and how they were used in ancient times.

Hundreds of translations ? You are joking, right ?

You don´t have the knowledge, but rather have an opinion that causes you to make ignorant ( lacking knowledge) statements, which means little.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Predators are among the keystone species on our planet. Without such animals entire forests would be wiped out. Therefore life on Earth is a food chain based on savage violence in order to survive. If life must exist this way, and it does, then what does that say about the morality of the God that made life on Earth. I thought life was to be a precious gift according to the notion of a benevolent God.
You are assuming that what is now is what was originally intended.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Obviously, you have no insight into Hebrew or Bible scholarship. Some translators in these fields are even atheists, yet they translate based upon current understandings of words and how they were used in ancient times.

Hundreds of translations ? You are joking, right ?

You don´t have the knowledge, but rather have an opinion that causes you to make ignorant ( lacking knowledge) statements, which means little.
And you have the knowledge? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Obviously, you have no insight into Hebrew or Bible scholarship. Some translators in these fields are even atheists, yet they translate based upon current understandings of words and how they were used in ancient times.

Hundreds of translations ? You are joking, right ?

You don´t have the knowledge, but rather have an opinion that causes you to make ignorant ( lacking knowledge) statements, which means little.

Languages change, current understanding is not the understanding of when originally written. I am surprised you dont realise that

Nope not joking, at least 200 in the English language alone excluding those written before the definitive KJV that was written to do away with all the different translations. Who knows how many in other languages
Example compare the NIV to any other.

Say the clueless one who seems to have no idea of bible history

Note. Bible-gateway list around 70 of the more common english translations and many more in different languages. Feel free to educate yourself there
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Languages change, current understanding is not the understanding of when originally written. I am surprised you dont realise that

Nope not joking, at least 200 in the English language alone excluding those written before the definitive KJV that was written to do away with all the different translations. Who knows how many in other languages
Example compare the NIV to any other.

Say the clueless one who seems to have no idea of bible history

Note. Bible-gateway list around 70 of the more common english translations and many more in different languages. Feel free to educate yourself there
It isn´t about todayś common usage, it is about the common usage of their day. As an example, Archaeology has prompted a clearer understanding of words in Koine Greek, newly discovered documents in ancient Hebrew have helped scholars to better understand the meaning of a word in or words in Hebrew.

It isn´t static, and most of the translations you speak of in English are simply outdated, and not used in seminary´s, because they are not correct.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
.
...
Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.

I think God’s design is moral. All people can choose freely do they want hell or heaven, do they want to love and do good (=heaven), or do they choose to do evil, lie, murder and steal (suffering).
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.


God is merciful and wise and the way he manages the universe is ethical and fair
There is justice

When God scattered His creatures and said to his servants (all universe elements), Come to me inevitably satisfied or dissatisfied

Some elements of the universe refuse to bow to God or react abnormally or abpositively.

Also Allah (god) Almighty when He created the objects and shapes and put the spirits knows that this will be obedient and this difficult to deal and this criminal

The test How to resist the toxicity of extraneous elements in your body and how to get out of this life with your spirit intact from the test

What is our role as individuals who know the truth?

Our role as believers is to pray that God will help us and those who are lost by right
We try to change fate by praying and God is responding

So we are created to worship and to save others who are offenders and to help each other

Life is a moral epic and God changes destiny

Life is not my faith that Jesus came to save the world and that let us sit in our homes, believing only in Him

Or meditate on temples for energy recovery

Life is a struggle to make god satisfied and others happy and sacrifice yourself for others to have mercy from God

Yes, God is omniscient
He knows how many tree leaves have appeared and fallen since the planet's origins
If the trees were all pens and the seas were all inks and we increased seven oceans, the words of God would not end

God is the first without beginning and the other without end

The simplest evidence that God is merciful to His slaves and did not create them to torture them
It is makes a nervous system that causes you pain so as not to hurt your body
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It isn´t about todayś common usage, it is about the common usage of their day. As an example, Archaeology has prompted a clearer understanding of words in Koine Greek, newly discovered documents in ancient Hebrew have helped scholars to better understand the meaning of a word in or words in Hebrew.

It isn´t static, and most of the translations you speak of in English are simply outdated, and not used in seminary´s, because they are not correct.

It is about what is written in the bible, not wat you want to be written in the bible,

Outdated? Then why are they in common use and some published in the last few years.
 

Chris Lovel

searcher
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.
This board is always entertaining. There are Bible thumpers who are deluded into thinking everything in the Bible is true. A few minutes of research will show otherwise, e.g. there are over 400 conflicting passages in that book, theoretically only half of them can be true, in reality only a few. They have endowed God with the gender of male, I doubt that very much. Then there is the fact that most of the Bible was written many years after the event, which means the details were passed on by word of mouth, in other words here-say, very inaccurate, even courts do not allow here-say as evidence so why should the Bible thumpers? Another point is that there people have lost there power of critical thinking, they are told something and because they are threatened with dire consequences if they don't believe and all those around them believe so they are coerced into believing also. They cannot question what they are told. The bible is not a reliable source of information. Think for yourself, do your own research, here is a start go to www.iands.org, You will find more about the nature of the divine there than you ever will in the Bible.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
It is about what is written in the bible, not wat you want to be written in the bible,

Outdated? Then why are they in common use and some published in the last few years.
Which ?

Right, it is about what the Bible actually says, translated to another language properly
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Which ?

Right, it is about what the Bible actually says, translated to another language properly

Which bible is translated properly???

I am guessing you say its the one you favour, others consider its the one they favour. And that is why Christianity is so fragmented
 

Chris Lovel

searcher
God is merciful and wise and the way he manages the universe is ethical and fair
There is justice

When God scattered His creatures and said to his servants (all universe elements), Come to me inevitably satisfied or dissatisfied

Some elements of the universe refuse to bow to God or react abnormally or abpositively.

Also Allah (god) Almighty when He created the objects and shapes and put the spirits knows that this will be obedient and this difficult to deal and this criminal

The test How to resist the toxicity of extraneous elements in your body and how to get out of this life with your spirit intact from the test

What is our role as individuals who know the truth?

Our role as believers is to pray that God will help us and those who are lost by right
We try to change fate by praying and God is responding

So we are created to worship and to save others who are offenders and to help each other

Life is a moral epic and God changes destiny

Life is not my faith that Jesus came to save the world and that let us sit in our homes, believing only in Him

Or meditate on temples for energy recovery

Life is a struggle to make god satisfied and others happy and sacrifice yourself for others to have mercy from God

Yes, God is omniscient
He knows how many tree leaves have appeared and fallen since the planet's origins
If the trees were all pens and the seas were all inks and we increased seven oceans, the words of God would not end

God is the first without beginning and the other without end

The simplest evidence that God is merciful to His slaves and did not create them to torture them
It is makes a nervous system that causes you pain so as not to hurt your body

Your first paragraph suggest God is merciful and wise, I don't think so, check out Jeremiah 11-22 "I will punish them, their young men will die by the sword, their sons and daughters by famine. Not even a remnant will be left behind" That is definitely NOT a merciful and wise God. I could go on but I have made my point. You people have lost your powers of critical thinking, abrogated your soul to the fear mongers, I feel sorry for you
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So then, without scripture to reveal this God, wouldn´t his observed acts contribute to the judgement of this god ? If there have been no observable acts, and no revelation through scripture, what are you left with ?
Yes, but, that judgement would be subjective.

Edit to add: A human's subjective perspective of anything on a cosmic/divine scale is not going to be very accurate. That's my point.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
I think God’s design is moral. All people can choose freely do they want hell or heaven, do they want to love and do good (=heaven), or do they choose to do evil, lie, murder and steal (suffering).
Does it not mean anything that

"So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever."

AND

"he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. "

?
The situation being that before person H-5,583,927,403.948N was even conceived god knew she would suffer most of her life and eventually end up in hell. The point being that by not allowing the conception to take place he could have prevented an individual's suffering on earth and in hell. Yet god chose to let the fated suffering go forward.
.

.
 
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Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
So then, without scripture to reveal this God, wouldn´t his observed acts contribute to the judgement of this god ? If there have been no observable acts, and no revelation through scripture, what are you left with ?
Not really the topic here, but just because YOU have seen no observable acts does not mean others have not.
I often use the analogy of rogue waves -which were once thought to be myth -until many could see they were not.
I call such things unusual arrangements of ordinary things -some of which can not be readily reproduced.
God once did things to be seen by many when his overall plan called for it -and will again -but meanwhile he calls individuals and actually iniates their faith (not all who believe actually have faith) on a more personal level -and it is not possible for individuals to reproduce HIS acts. They are also sometimes more subtle than extremely obvious.

(some bible verses woven in here -do not have time to look up.
Faith is not actually blind. It "is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (bold mine)
If you consider those of great faith in the bible, you'll notice they also observed God's acts.
When it is initiated, WE are mostly blind, and it increases "from faith to faith" -that is... from substance to substance and evidence to evidence.
If you eventually observe something and say "that's not supposed to be able to happen" -and don't know how it could have happened -you will have evidence of something unseen.
Such an event might also open your mind to things you once thought completely impossible.
That is not the whole story -but is similar to how it begins.

If there were no scripture, there is still the environment. The environment -including ourselves -can not reveal some particulars, but what is generally right and wrong -true and false -can be known thereby -and is indicative of that which created it.

Rom 1:19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

THE MOST IMPORTANT thing we can observe from that which was made is that universal keeping of the commandments would make the world wonderful. As many point out, they were generally not original to the bible. The first few are so as they refer to the God described in the bible specifically, but even if one has not observed evidence that God is self-aware, etc., the principles behind even those are observably correct. Our present striving against each other and fighting over different belief systems is illogical, for example, because there is one overall reality, on set of overall truths -one reference for all. That reference should not be mocked, but taken extremely seriously -not in vain.
...and who could not agree that we all definitely need a day off? :p

Most of humanity will not be called to the first resurrection -and they are not "doomed". They will be raised to the judgment -and judged according to their WORKS -NOT SPECIFIC BELIEFS
 
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