• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Halloween evil?

susanblange

Active Member
The early church didn't observe Jesus' birthday, reflecting pre-existing cultural influence of not celebrating birthdays. The church didn't adopt Dec. 25th as such until the 5th century, earlier traditions differed, placing it either sometime in March of November.

Nor is Dec. 25th absolute, Eastern orthodox celebrate it on January 7th.
The star in the east appeared on Friday evening, January 6, 1984. It was a huge six pointed star and Zhao Zyoung of China and Ronald Reagan were the two "kings" who visited. They were at a summit close by. It is "three kings day" in Puerto Rico. The Messiah was supposed to be born in late September or early October and she is a Libra. The birthstone is a fiery opal and the birth sign is the scales of justice.
 
Last edited:

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
By the way, another important source to look at is Bede. Now why would a Catholic monk, who wrote in the 8th century, describe December and December 25th as per-chrisitian holy times? (yule / mother's night) He also described Eostre as a goddess, worshiped in April, obviously making it to us as Easter. There are whole youtube channels describing folk tales of the gods, and how they were made into saints. Catholicism itself admits readily to converting holy sites and cultural practices into Christian ones. You are so grossly off on all of this, I'm actually astonished to be honest
Not every historian is correct. You have to go back earlier in time and search out pagan sources. There were no pagan holiday that were on December 25.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
from Biblical Archaeology.org:

"Helios, the Greek god of the sun (who was later often identified with Apollo, the god of light), is another ancient pagan figure whose image reverberated through monotheistic art; both Christians and Jews used the image of the Greek god of the sun in religious contexts. The Greek deity was most commonly depicted in a chariot drawn by four horses (the quadriga). The chariot represented the sun, and according to Greek mythology, the daily journey taken by the god across the sky was the source of sunlight."

In a Christian funerary context, the image of Christ as Helios is commonly interpreted as being representative of the resurrection. In early Jewish depictions, it has been hypothesized that the image of Helios, or simply the sun as in the case of the mosaic at Sepphoris, represents God’s omnipotence.

Equally well documented are images of Christ as Orpheus, particularly in the catacombs of Rome."

Christ as the Sun god (Roman: Sol Invictus; Greek: Apollo, Helios). "This mosaic part of a larger mosaic on the ceiling of the Tomb of Julli in the Vatican necropolis in Rome, is of Byzantine origin and is representative of Early Christian art. The mosaic is made of tesserae and depicts Christ as the sun god Sol Invictus in a chariot pulled by two white horses."

See also: Christos Helios
You can quote spurious sources all you want. Christian sources use light/dark imagery solely because light reveals truth and darkness obscures it. It has nothing to do with any sun god.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The early church didn't observe Jesus' birthday, reflecting pre-existing cultural influence of not celebrating birthdays. The church didn't adopt Dec. 25th as such until the 5th century, earlier traditions differed, placing it either sometime in March of November.

Nor is Dec. 25th absolute, Eastern orthodox celebrate it on January 7th.
Sure. So?

Yes, the original day was Jan 7. In the west this became the feast of the Epiphany. One of the reasons that December 25 became the feast of the Nativity was because the theory was put forth that it was actually the day he was born on.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Some of these never actually stopped, for example, there was never actually a cessation of the mikvah for women.

In other cases, the culture of looking forward to it never stopped but was a part of Judaism, such as the belief in the Temple and looking forward to the building of the Third Temple. It's not like the Temple was no longer part of Judaism.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Sir, paganism died out. Google "paganism died out."
Wrong on both points. I'm a woman and a google search is not sufficient to support your claims. Start supporting your opinions With legitimate sources because there is a wealth of research that proves otherwise.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
You can quote spurious sources all you want. Christian sources use light/dark imagery solely because light reveals truth and darkness obscures it. It has nothing to do with any sun god.
Hardly spurious and your denials are hollow. Counter with legitimate resources to support your claims. So far, you've done nothing.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Sure. So?

Yes, the original day was Jan 7. In the west this became the feast of the Epiphany. One of the reasons that December 25 became the feast of the Nativity was because the theory was put forth that it was actually the day he was born on.
So, like so many other things you're wrong. Support your arguments.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Some of these never actually stopped, for example, there was never actually a cessation of the mikvah for women.

In other cases, the culture of looking forward to it never stopped but was a part of Judaism, such as the belief in the Temple and looking forward to the building of the Third Temple. It's not like the Temple was no longer part of Judaism.
Incorrect, as those sources show.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Incorrect. You need to start supporting your arguments. Start providing sources and links.
It is not up to me to give a source for a negative. It is rather up to the person making the positive claim, that there was originally a pagan holiday that was on December 25, PRIOR to the celebration of Christmas, and to give a valid historical website for it (not blog site or quasi historical site).
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hardly spurious and your denials are hollow. Counter with legitimate resources to support your claims. So far, you've done nothing.
Simply read teh Christian writings. For example, Matthew 5:16: "In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So, like so many other things you're wrong. Support your arguments.
Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar.9 March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception.10 Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.d

This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa. The treatise states: “Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.”11 Based on this, the treatise dates Jesus’ birth to the winter solstice.

Augustine, too, was familiar with this association. In On the Trinity (c. 399–419) he writes: “For he [Jesus] is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th.
Augustine, Sermon 202.

How December 25 Became Christmas
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Not every historian is correct. You have to go back earlier in time and search out pagan sources.
Oh Bede would have known about his own culture, since the conversion of the angles was still going on within his lifetime. His parents or grandparents may well have been pagan, but he obviously rebelled against their traditions. In any case, he surely heard about such traditions from his own elders in his lifetime.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th.
And about a dozen other gods like zoraster and mithra right. And since your tying all that into Jewish tradition for some reason, how and why? You surely have no motivation to say that all of this has direct links to Jewish tradition, I'm failing to understand that.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member

This is not your usual informative responses. But Lets look and some ideas.
1. Samhain or Samain was a well known celebration of Ireland and one of four celebrations. The last feis of Tara held on November 1 was celebrated by Diarmaid who was partially Christianized, reportedly only nominally so, but also was reported to have druids. Thus the knowledge of Celtic culture was preserved the longest in Europe. Similar celebrations have noted in the Welsh history/folklore and was most likely throughout Celtic society in Europe, just better documented in Irish literature. As Christianity spread north they would have incorporated the customs and relabeling them with Christian symbolic meaning. There is no evidence that November 1 was significant to Jesus.

2. Multiple sources show that celebration occurred on the eve of Samhain followed by the day which is the opposite in all saints day where the liturgy is on the day and may be followed by going to the cemetery that evening.

3. The symbolism of creatures form the other world is throughout Irish tales of pre-Christian Ireland and the time of connection between the two worlds is most likely to happen on Samhain. You can read "The Adventures of Nera" for a short but good example of this connection and I can give you more examples if needed. The images of other otherworldly creatures and spirits that come out on the eve of November 1 are connected to those the live in the otherworld. Also there were customs of leaving an offering of the harvest so that the otherworldly creatures would not harm that household. Thus the unmistakable similarities to the modern Halloween including the custom of giving candy as an offering.

4. The Celts adopted the pre-Celtic sites of Ireland and adapted their mythology around these sites. There is at least one Cairn at the site Longhcrew whose orientation is to let the light enter the passage tomb during Samhain and Imbolc connecting the dead with November 1. Also the date is astronomically associated with the midpoint between the fall equinox and the winter solstice. These particular time events would have been well known to the Celts and certainly significant to the pre-celts. No such clear associate with those dates in the very early Christian church until it migrated north.

There is a start.
And an interesting side note from the medieval literature - Diamaid was the benefactor St. Cairan who later cursed him resulting a spear run through him and then the rath he was in was set of fire to escape the fire jumped into a vat of ale and drowned - St Cairan then procured his land for his ecclesiastical site.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
It is not up to me to give a source for a negative. It is rather up to the person making the positive claim, that there was originally a pagan holiday that was on December 25, PRIOR to the celebration of Christmas, and to give a valid historical website for it (not blog site or quasi historical site).
Whether considered a holiday or not the time of the winter solstice so close to December 25 has more than enough support from archeology that that time was symbolic and of great importance to the pre-Christian cultures. Examples can be given.
 
Top