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Jesus isn't in the Talmud

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
So, first off, there is an obscurity concerning the dates, and someone or someones, named Yeshua, in the Talmud. Now, since some, aside from this, still think Jesus is in the Talmud, I'm sure, He isn't, and here is actually, why, that is.

Because, the Jews say 'Yehoshua', for 'Jesus', Yeshu, Yeshua,

Except that Jesus's name isn't Yehoshua.

To put it another way, they would not have written, or say, 'Yehoshua', 'Yeshua', or probably even 'Yeshu', for Jesus's name.

•••
In other words, it's very unlikely that Jesus, is in the Talmud, unless there is something very specific, and even then , how would they use a different name, it doesn't correlate.


•••
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well... I always thought he was in the Talmud... so I'm interested to read the replies....

In other words, it's very unlikely that Jesus, is in the Talmud, unless there is something very specific, and even then , how would they use a different name, it doesn't correlate.

This part I can comment on, though...

Judaism uses shorthand a lot... Almost all the famous Rabbis have nicknames. I'm not saying that Jesus should be compared ( positively or negatively ) with these other personalities. I'm just letting you know how common it is to use an abbreviation for a name in Judaism.

Examples:

Besht
Rashi
Rashbi
Rambam
Or-HaChayim

Not just that, but, if you look at classic commentaries in Hebrew, abbreviations and contractions are quite common. It's something I struggle with if I go back to look at the original untranslated Hebrew. And it's one reason why having a qualified experienced teacher is so helpful for this subject matter.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I just realized that your research probably only included the Babylonian Talmud, if I have time, I'll do a little research in the Jerusalem Talmud to see of there is anything to compare and contrast...
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
So, first off, there is an obscurity concerning the dates, and someone or someones, named Yeshua, in the Talmud. Now, since some, aside from this, still think Jesus is in the Talmud, I'm sure, He isn't, and here is actually, why, that is.

Because, the Jews say 'Yehoshua', for 'Jesus', Yeshu, Yeshua,

Except that Jesus's name isn't Yehoshua.

To put it another way, they would not have written, or say, 'Yehoshua', 'Yeshua', or probably even 'Yeshu', for Jesus's name.

•••
In other words, it's very unlikely that Jesus, is in the Talmud, unless there is something very specific, and even then , how would they use a different name, it doesn't correlate.


•••

Jesus is a much later translation, not until the 16th century was the letter J even recognised and not used in any bible until later still

The other 2 names you quote 'Yeshu and Yeshua' appear to be abbreviations of Yehoshua, which is typical.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Well... I always thought he was in the Talmud... so I'm interested to read the replies....



This part I can comment on, though...

Judaism uses shorthand a lot... Almost all the famous Rabbis have nicknames. I'm not saying that Jesus should be compared ( positively or negatively ) with these other personalities. I'm just letting you know how common it is to use an abbreviation for a name in Judaism.

Examples:

Besht
Rashi
Rashbi
Rambam
Or-HaChayim

Not just that, but, if you look at classic commentaries in Hebrew, abbreviations and contractions are quite common. It's something I struggle with if I go back to look at the original untranslated Hebrew. And it's one reason why having a qualified experienced teacher is so helpful for this subject matter.
Except for the last one (which is the name of that Rabbi's work, not an acronym of his name), all the others are acronyms. I'm not sure exactly what it is the OP is claiming, but although printer's use acronyms in the text, I don't think there's any evidence that anyone was actually called by an acronym of their name.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'm not sure exactly what it is the OP is claiming

I think the OP is looking for any reference to Jesus' name in the Talmud. That's it, just the name.

There seem to be several references that could be the Christian Jesus. The strongest candidate I've found is Avodah Zarah 17a? It's a story about a student of "ישו הנוצרי" ( Jesus The Nazerene ).

@Desert Snake , Is this what you were looking for?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I think the OP is looking for any reference to Jesus' name in the Talmud. That's it, just the name.

There seem to be several references that could be the Christian Jesus. The strongest candidate I've found is Avodah Zarah 17a? It's a story about a student of "ישו הנוצרי" ( Jesus The Nazerene ).

@Desert Snake , Is this what you were looking for?
Sure, any reference, then details could be estimated as to whether it refers to Jesus.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I think the OP is looking for any reference to Jesus' name in the Talmud. That's it, just the name.

There seem to be several references that could be the Christian Jesus. The strongest candidate I've found is Avodah Zarah 17a? It's a story about a student of "ישו הנוצרי" ( Jesus The Nazerene ).

@Desert Snake , Is this what you were looking for?
A mention of Jesus could differ from theories about other references, so, delineation, would also mean something.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I think the OP is looking for any reference to Jesus' name in the Talmud. That's it, just the name.

There seem to be several references that could be the Christian Jesus. The strongest candidate I've found is Avodah Zarah 17a? It's a story about a student of "ישו הנוצרי" ( Jesus The Nazerene ).

@Desert Snake , Is this what you were looking for?
I would add that a reference to a Jesus, may not be the Jesus, basically.

Now, can there be more than one 'jesus', not specifically same name, yes, I believe there could be. Even a 'yeshu the nazarene.'.

Obviously that itself isn't something that might be obvious, hence the delineation in more than one aspect.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Except for the last one (which is the name of that Rabbi's work, not an acronym of his name), all the others are acronyms. I'm not sure exactly what it is the OP is claiming, but although printer's use acronyms in the text, I don't think there's any evidence that anyone was actually called by an acronym of their name.
I'm saying that Jesus's name isn't Yehoshua.

Hence, a reference to 'Yeshu the Nazarene', itself, brings up a question, because of course the inference there, Yeshu, Yeshua, Yehoshua.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Jesus is a much later translation, not until the 16th century was the letter J even recognised and not used in any bible until later still

The other 2 names you quote 'Yeshu and Yeshua' appear to be abbreviations of Yehoshua, which is typical.
Perhaps you missed the part, where I say that I don't believe Jesus's name, to be Yehoshua.

However you bring up something contextual, the 'Yeshu' reference or references are basically, saying, and seem to be commonly estimated, to mean, Yehoshua.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Perhaps you missed the part, where I say that I don't believe Jesus's name, to be Yehoshua.

However you bring up something contextual, the 'Yeshu' reference or references are basically, saying, and seem to be commonly estimated, to mean, Yehoshua.


Except you wrote Jesus several times in the OP

Example

Because, the Jews say 'Yehoshua', for 'Jesus', Yeshu, Yeshua,

The Hebrews, at the time the Tamud was written did not and could not use the word Jesus. Which was the the point i was making.


It seems to me that both Yeshu and Yeshua are abbreviations of Yehoshua.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Sure, any reference, then details could be estimated as to whether it refers to Jesus.
What I'm seeing so far while researching this is that there is a person named Yeshu in the Talmud. The two details given about him in Avodah Zarah 17a match the Judaic approach to "Who was Jesus". But that's not a big surprise. Mainstream Judaism describes Jesus as a false messiah. "Jesus The Nazerene" in Avodah Zarah 17a is a teacher who was a heretic.

That's all that's listed explicitly: teacher and heretic.

BTW, there are other mentions of Yeshu that I found, but, they don't use the label "The Nazarene".
 
Last edited:

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
What I'm seeing so far while researching this is that there is a person named Yeshu in the Talmud. The two details given about him in Avodah Zarah 17a match the Judaic approach to "Who was Jesus". But that's not a big surprise. Mainstream Judaism describes Jesus as a false messiah. "Jesus The Nazerene" in Avodah Zarah 17a is a teacher who was a heretic.

That's all that's listed explicitly: teacher and heretic.

BTW, there are other mentions of Yeshu that I found, but, they don't use the label "The Nazarene".
This would, or could, match, my beliefs regarding this.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Except you wrote Jesus several times in the OP

Example



The Hebrews, at the time the Tamud was written did not and could not use the word Jesus. Which was the the point i was making.


It seems to me that both Yeshu and Yeshua are abbreviations of Yehoshua.
And I don't believe Jesus's name to be Yehoshua, and, with the inferences that seem to be commonly estimated , Yeshu, Yeshua, Yehoshua, there isn't clear evidence, to me, that this refers to the Jesus, I believe in.

If anything, it is doubtful, these references refer to the Jesus I believe in, because of the commonality in estimation, it is referring to a 'Yehoshua'. Or, even a Yeshua.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
And I don't believe Jesus's name to be Yehoshua, and, with the inferences that seem to be commonly estimated , Yeshu, Yeshua, Yehoshua, there isn't clear evidence, to me, that this refers to the Jesus, I believe in.

If anything, it is doubtful, these references refer to the Jesus I believe in, because of the commonality in estimation, it is referring to a 'Yehoshua'. Or, even a Yeshua.


If anything these references simply dropped in to common usage. Whether they refer to JC of the bible is open to interpretation but i understand that scholars of the Talmud consider the matter unresolved.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I think the OP is looking for any reference to Jesus' name in the Talmud. That's it, just the name.

There seem to be several references that could be the Christian Jesus. The strongest candidate I've found is Avodah Zarah 17a? It's a story about a student of "ישו הנוצרי" ( Jesus The Nazerene ).

@Desert Snake , Is this what you were looking for?
The references to Jesus the Nazarene put Jesis ~75 years earlier than the NT does. So you can either - like me - claim that the NT based its narrative on a real person who lived much earlier than the NT claims, or you can say the Talmud was talking about someone else, or you can say that the Talmud was misinformed or polemic.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
If anything these references simply dropped in to common usage. Whether they refer to JC of the bible is open to interpretation but i understand that scholars of the Talmud consider the matter unresolved.
Again.

The Jesus I believe in, isn't named Yehoshua. It doesn't matter 'where' a Yehoshua is referenced, Talmud, extra writings, the NT, since there isn't an inference, to a mix up of names, any 'Yehoshua', isn't the Jesus, I believe in.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Again.

The Jesus I believe in, isn't named Yehoshua. It doesn't matter 'where' a Yehoshua is referenced, Talmud, extra writings, the NT, since there isn't an inference, to a mix up of names, any 'Yehoshua', isn't the Jesus, I believe in.


Its down to interpretation, some say yes, some say no. Believe whatever you want, chances are the truth of the matter will never be known

Oh and i have seen his dads gravestone

1279px-Römerhalle,_Bad_Kreuznach_-_Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera_tombstone.JPG
 
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