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The Morality Of God's Grand Design

Dave Watchman

Active Member
.
In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.

I think the problem here is, you are working from an erroneous supposition.

some of which he would send to heaven forever

Yes, I was picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe to believe in His Son Jesus, and so be saved.

I will never die.

others he would send to hell forever

But no, God is a loving God.

He will not send any of his creatures into an infinite torture in time for the behavior exhibited in this tiny moment that is our life here.

We are but a vapor.

"You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. ... - James 4:14

"The penalty for sin is death. - Romans 6:23

"The soul that sins, it will die. - Ezekiel 18:20​

We are but a moment's sunlight,
Fading in the grass.

Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

No.

The puppies are without sin.

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

You will answer, we will answer, yes.

A day will come, before you know it, when every knee will bow.

Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.

After the thousand years are finished, the lost will be shown why they can't come with us in the Holy City, the smoke from their torment will ascend forever and ever.

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Their SMOKE will remain.

But they will be gone.

They will be ashes beneath our feet.

Back to the dust where they came from.

"Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. - Malachi 4:3
Lost and gone forever,
Dreadful sorry Clementine.

puppies_dog_bed.jpg.653x0_q80_crop-smart.jpg


Peaceful Sabbath.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.

Does not the double-slit experiment refute the notion of an all-knowing all-seeing God?

If "God" were to observe which slit of a double-slit apparatus that a particle went through, would not the particle always go through the double-slit apparatus only as matter behaving like a particle rather than a wave, such as observation collapses the particle's wave-function.

.

If there were such a thing as an omni-being, perhaps the omniscience of such being could be limited to the reading of minds.

 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Evil
Isaiah 45:7[/QUOTE]
Yeah, he is pretty passionate about people heaping praise, adoration, and worship on himself.


I





Don't know about that, but a lot of Christians believe it's so. Like 91% of the Protestants.


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That's nice. Just too bad he can't respond to some of the struggling and suffering that occurs throughout the world.


Irrelevant, but okay.


It isn't created, past tense, but creates, present tense.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. It's an on-going thing with him.



Yup. Ya can't compromise that which doesn't exist.

.
It is normal to cite the translation you are using when citing the Bible. There are a plethora of words in Hebrew that do not exactly match a word in English. I have checked your quotation in a number of translations, I have 9, and find that the word in your quotation from Isaiah is not evil, but darkness, in modern translations. In other words, you used poor study techniques and poor exegesis to pick a translation that supports your particular biases.

God did not create evil.

AS to what occurs on earth, that you try and pin on God, He is not responsible for the actions of beings with free will, nor is He responsible for a natural system that has become perverted from itś original purpose.

He allows mankind to demonstrate exactly how it functions without God, to the entire universe.

Of course we all have free will
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
The quote does not completely reflect what biblical scripture actually says.

In creating, God essentially imagined and created more to know.

In creating beings with individual decision-making ability, God created some UN-knowns

(Genesis 22:11-12"Just then, the Angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the Angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me.”)

God's plan is to make ALL individuals trustworthy and incorruptible.

(I Cor 1520But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death)

The meek will not inherit heaven -the present seat of God's throne -but "THE EARTH" and "THE HEAVENS" which "WERE FORMED TO BE INHABITED"

(John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
I Thess 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
Rev 5:9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Isa 45:18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Rom 8:18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth
right up to the present time.)

What some do not realize is that God WILL ALSO MAKE MEEK THOSE WHO ARE NOT MEEK.

(Mal 4:1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Isa 2:11The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.12For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isa 13:And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir)


The idea that some were predestined to go to heaven and some to hell "forever" is not actually biblical.

"I Cor 3:13-15Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Those "in Christ" already -who were called, predestined and who overcame sin in their lives -the dead and the living -will be made immortal at his return -and will then reign with him on Earth (initially) as kings and priests.

THE REST OF THE DEAD live not again until the thousand years are finished. THEN SOME whose works were not good will have their part in the lake of fire.


Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev 21:7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God is ABLE to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna (lake of fire), but that is not to say that is what he WILL do.
It is also an ultimatum and the last stage of purifying those who did not respond to anything else.


(Rev 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I Cor 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
I think the problem here is, you are working from an erroneous supposition.



Yes, I was picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe to believe in His Son Jesus, and so be saved.

I will never die.



But no, God is a loving God.

He will not send any of his creatures into an infinite torture in time for the behavior exhibited in this tiny moment that is our life here.

We are but a vapor.

"You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. ... - James 4:14

"The penalty for sin is death. - Romans 6:23

"The soul that sins, it will die. - Ezekiel 18:20​

We are but a moment's sunlight,
Fading in the grass.



No.

The puppies are without sin.



You will answer, we will answer, yes.

A day will come, before you know it, when every knee will bow.

Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.

After the thousand years are finished, the lost will be shown why they can't come with us in the Holy City, the smoke from their torment will ascend forever and ever.

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Their SMOKE will remain.

But they will be gone.

They will be ashes beneath our feet.

Back to the dust where they came from.

"Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. - Malachi 4:3
Lost and gone forever,
Dreadful sorry Clementine.

puppies_dog_bed.jpg.653x0_q80_crop-smart.jpg


Peaceful Sabbath.
ALL were chosen for salvation, yet were not compelled against their own will to choose it.

A fine SDA scholar, assuming you are an SDA as I once was, Dr. Richard Rice, makes a compelling case for the openness of God. Check it out.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I've mentioned it briefly in the previous threads; Based on the parameters provided, I think it's impossible to objectively judge morality from our perspective here as created beings.
Morality is defined and can be judged by the New Testament.

Christ was perfectly moral, and He taught what morality is and how to achieve it.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Omniscience
Isaiah 46:9-10
Psalm 147:4-5
Job 37:16
Hebrews 4:13
1 John 3:20
There is more

Evil
Isaiah 45:7
Your verse from Isaiah is translated poorly, modern translation use the word darkness, light and darkness, not light and evil.

The rest of your verses do not conflict with the concept that God is not omniscient.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The quote does not completely reflect what biblical scripture actually says.

In creating, God essentially imagined and created more to know.

In creating beings with individual decision-making ability, God created some UN-knowns
("Just then, the Angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the Angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me.”)

God's plan is to make ALL individuals trustworthy and incorruptible.

The meek will not inherit heaven -the present seat of God's throne -but "THE EARTH" and "THE HEAVENS" which "WERE FORMED TO BE INHABITED"

What some do not realize is that God WILL ALSO MAKE MEEK THOSE WHO ARE NOT MEEK.

The idea that some were predestined to go to heaven and some to hell "forever" is not actually biblical.

Those "in Christ" already -who were called, predestined and who overcame sin in their lives -the dead and the living -will be made immortal at his return -and will then reign with him on Earth (initially) as kings and priests.

THE REST OF THE DEAD live not again until the thousand years are finished. THEN SOME whose works were not good will have their part in the lake of fire.
God is ABLE to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna (lake of fire), but that is not to say that is what he WILL do.
It is also an ultimatum and the last stage of purifying those who did not respond to anything else.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
Could you please cite the Bible verses you are using ? Otherwise there is no way to determine what is your thought, and what is Biblical.

Thanks !
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Does not the double-slit experiment refute the notion of an all-knowing all-seeing God?

If "God" were to observe which slit of a double-slit apparatus that a particle went through, would not the particle always go through the double-slit apparatus only as matter behaving like a particle rather than a wave, such as observation collapses the particle's wave-function.

.

If there were such a thing as an omni-being, perhaps the omniscience of such being could be limited to the reading of minds.

LOL !!! God wouldn´t have to look, since He created it, He knows exactly what it is, how it functions and why, and what it is in all states.

God cannot know what hasn´t occurred, yet through omnipotence, He can shape events to suit His will.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Your verse from Isaiah is translated poorly, modern translation use the word darkness, light and darkness, not light and evil.

The rest of your verses do not conflict with the concept that God is not omniscient.

Ehm, the bible is old, not modern
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Morality is defined and can be judged by the New Testament.

Christ was perfectly moral, and He taught what morality is and how to achieve it.
My response was focused on answering the question: "is God moral?"

I probably should have said, "I think it's impossible to objectively judge God's morality from our perspective here as created beings.". It would have been more clear that way.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Evil
Isaiah 45:7

It is normal to cite the translation you are using when citing the Bible. There are a plethora of words in Hebrew that do not exactly match a word in English. I have checked your quotation in a number of translations, I have 9, and find that the word in your quotation from Isaiah is not evil, but darkness, in modern translations. In other words, you used poor study techniques and poor exegesis to pick a translation that supports your particular biases.[/quote]
Here are just a dozen. Take your pick.

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things

ASV
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

JUB
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

WYC
forming light, and making darknesses, making peace, and forming evil; I am the Lord, doing all these things.

LEB
I form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.

KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

DRA
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

BRG
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

DARBY
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

YLT
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

AKJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

GNV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.​



God did not create evil.
Yes he did. Now what?

AS to what occurs on earth, that you try and pin on God, He is not responsible for the actions of beings with free will, nor is He responsible for a natural system that has become perverted from itś original purpose.
Thing his, being omniscient he knew all this before he even set out to create mankind. He Knew a very good proportion of his creation would suffer, yet he went ahead anyway.

Of course we all have free will
And, of course, we don't. Now what?

.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Does not the double-slit experiment refute the notion of an all-knowing all-seeing God?

If "God" were to observe which slit of a double-slit apparatus that a particle went through, would not the particle always go through the double-slit apparatus only as matter behaving like a particle rather than a wave, such as observation collapses the particle's wave-function.

.

If there were such a thing as an omni-being, perhaps the omniscience of such being could be limited to the reading of minds.

Dr. quantum? You do realize that was made by a whack job new age group of people.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
It is normal to cite the translation you are using when citing the Bible. There are a plethora of words in Hebrew that do not exactly match a word in English. I have checked your quotation in a number of translations, I have 9, and find that the word in your quotation from Isaiah is not evil, but darkness, in modern translations. In other words, you used poor study techniques and poor exegesis to pick a translation that supports your particular biases.
Here are a dozen. Take your pick.

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things

ASV
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

JUB
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

WYC
forming light, and making darknesses, making peace, and forming evil; I am the Lord, doing all these things.

LEB
I form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.

KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

DRA
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

BRG
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

DARBY
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

YLT
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

AKJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

GNV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.​




Yes he did. Now what?


Thing his, being omniscient he knew all this before he even set out to create mankind. Knowing a very good proportion of his creation would suffer, yet he went ahead anyway.


And, of course, we don't. Now what?

.[/QUOTE]
I see you use very obscure translations, at least to the lay researcher, some antiques too.

The NKJV, New English, ESV, RSV, and NIV, say your obscure older translations are wrong.

These versions are based upon the most up to date scholarship.

Note you find NEW or REVISED as a description of all but one.

These are the most common Bibles in use today, because they are more accurate and correct versions.

Further, re Isaiah 45:7 fro The New Bible Commentary, revised , Guthrie, Notyer, Stibbs, Wiseman
¨ Light and darkness.........weal and woe are typical Hebraic expressions as pairs of opposites, for all there is. Woe is literally evil, but this Hebrew word (darkness) is too general a term to suggest Isaiah is making God the author of evil ΅.

You are wrong.

Prove from the Bible that God is omniscient, that is, He knows all that will ever be possible to know, past, present, future, right now. Further, this knowledge must not be coupled to an intent to act, or an action, as these reflect omnipotence, not omniscience.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
My response was focused on answering the question: "is God moral?"

I probably should have said, "I think it's impossible to objectively judge God's morality from our perspective here as created beings.". It would have been more clear that way.
Can God be immoral ? Whether you are an Arian or Trinitarian, Christs life and teachings are Gods morality.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
T
Ehm, the bible is old, not modern
Tran
Ehm, the bible is old, not modern
Translations are based upon the best that scholarship can do at the time of writing.

As tie goes by scholarship gets a clearer understanding of translating the Hebraic word.

In this case, the Hebraic word for evil is not used, and coupling opposites together as in light or darkness ( the proper translation), means all, and should be construed as anything else.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
T

Tran

Translations are based upon the best that scholarship can do at the time of writing.

As tie goes by scholarship gets a clearer understanding of translating the Hebraic word.

In this case, the Hebraic word for evil is not used, and coupling opposites together as in light or darkness ( the proper translation), means all, and should be construed as anything else.


Thats a load of codswallop, translations are based on what people want to hear. Which is the reason that there are hundreds of current translations and every one subtly (or in the case of a few, not so subtly) different.
 
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