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Is Halloween evil?

exchemist

Veteran Member
The RCC is one of the worst Christian doctrines, it is corrupt. It has been responsible for much evil over the centuries, like the Spanish Inquisition, turning a blind eye to the paedophile priests, and the evil perpetrated by some nuns in charge of schools, and those terrible Magdalene laundries.:mad::mad::mad:
:D:D
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
If you truly believe that Jesus was a sun god, then you are displaying a phenomenal ignorance. Enough said. Let's just drop it.
I didn't say that. I said that the imagery and symbolism they use for Christ is pretty much the same as a Sun deity. Those are two different things, so you misunderstood me. Jesus was just a human being who was deified by his distraught followers after he was executed.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What about the destruction of Solomon's Temple and the Babylonian captivity and the rebuilding of the Temple and reinstitution of the sacrificial rites there? Do you really need a web link for this?
The belief for the need of these things never died out. In fact, even today, there are those who look towards the day when the third temple will be built. Don't confuse the lack of a temple with the death of the temple culture.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I didn't say that. I said that the imagery and symbolism they use for Christ is pretty much the same as a Sun deity. Those are two different things, so you misunderstood me. Jesus was just a human being who was deified by his distraught followers after he was executed.
Light and dark doesn't mean he was thought of in the same manner as the sun god. Light exposes the truth. Dark obscures it. you need go no further than that to understand the imagery.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Light and dark doesn't mean he was thought of in the same manner as the sun god. Light exposes the truth. Dark obscures it. you need go no further than that to understand the imagery.
Still the same imagery, along with the Sun rays and so on. Catholics and the Orthodox would say that the Pagans had some of the truth but fell into error but Christianity reveals all of the truth, so they let the people keep the aspects of their religion they saw as truthful and made them drop the rest.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Isn't this a Neo-Pagan book? Sorry, but I have no respect for Neo-Paganism because, quite frankly, they lie.

They falisify history, claiming to be the continuation of Old Paganism, but the truth is that the Old Paganism died out, and there was no one to teach it. So the new Pagans did the best they could with the limited information in books, and added a whole bunch of stuff that they simply made up out of whole cloth.

In many cases, they left out stuff that they found unappealing, such as human sacrifice by the Celts in Central Europe.

And they don't actually believe in magick, which works every time. Instead they believe in magick as a form of prayer, which may or may not work. They even encourage their members to make up their own magick spells, which simply wouldn't happen if they truly believed in the integrity of magick.

"THE RELIGION OF THE ANCIENT CELTS" BY J.A. MACCULLOCH would definitely not be considered a Neo-Pagan book written in 1911.

Neo-Paganism is no more of a lie than any other religion and it is inappropriate to call it such. Most recognize that practitioners of the Celtic faith were ultimately converted at some point and that the modern version has no direct link to the past. That does not mean that this is not a valid religion. There is plenty of information in archeology, folklore, and retained customs even if those practicing the customs considered themselves Christians.

As for Halloween, the catholic church may have renamed the holiday from Samhain but the date, rituals and symbolism is clearly not from the teachings of jesus. It is very doubtful that those converted understood much about the conversion and only blended the symbols with continuation of their rituals and pattern of belief with new attachments added. Halloween is much more like the celebration of Samhain than it is of any Christian celebration.

I personally think the occupation of Ireland by the English only helped preserve the old rituals and rites to maintain identity during the occupation.
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
The original church was a Jewish sect that only celebrated the Jewish holy days. It evolved into the Gentile church that exists today with its own holy days -- no surprises there.

I'm not sure that's the argument that most Jewish people make about Christinaity... are you kind of alone in making that sort of argument?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm not sure that's the argument that most Jewish people make about Christinaity... are you kind of alone in making that sort of argument?
I'm a student of Dr. Robert Eisenman, who is a brilliant Jew. He specializes in this era. He makes a big point of James and the original Christians being a sect of Judaism, and Paul coming along and creating a new religion, the one we see today. See his book, "James the Brother of Jesus."

Generally speaking, I don't talk with other Jews about Christianity -- it's just not a subject important to Jews. But for those Jews that I do speak with about it, they do share this opinion. We only disagree on the details. I'm sure there are a variety of opinions among Jews. There always is.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
As for Halloween, the catholic church may have renamed the holiday from Samhain but the date, rituals and symbolism is clearly not from the teachings of jesus. It is very doubtful that those converted understood much about the conversion and only blended the symbols with continuation of their rituals and pattern of belief with new attachments added. Halloween is much more like the celebration of Samhain than it is of any Christian celebration.

I don't know.. I might argue that during the first century, the fairy faith may have been in vogue, and the gospels are avatars of druidism. The old testament simply doesn't contain the intense, haloweenish spirit world inhabited by Jesus. Maybe it was imported there by roman soldiers, and adapted to Jewish culture. Also the number 3 appearing all the time, that's not from the old testament! Celts had influence at one time I think

I personally think the occupation of Ireland by the English only helped preserve the old rituals and rites to maintain identity during the occupation.

Well, Bede describes the Anglo-saxon pagan calender, and their month of October was known as winterfylleth. It marks the beginning of winter with the first full moon, and samhain may have done the same, which raises questions on how similar the two cultures (celtic and anglo-saxon) may have been, in that part of the year
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
December 25 was one of the days that many did think was the actual birthday, which is one of the reasons it was chosen.

By the way, another important source to look at is Bede. Now why would a Catholic monk, who wrote in the 8th century, describe December and December 25th as per-chrisitian holy times? (yule / mother's night) He also described Eostre as a goddess, worshiped in April, obviously making it to us as Easter. There are whole youtube channels describing folk tales of the gods, and how they were made into saints. Catholicism itself admits readily to converting holy sites and cultural practices into Christian ones. You are so grossly off on all of this, I'm actually astonished to be honest
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Actually YES, they ended the pagan holidays. Until the Neo Paganism quasi-revived such holidays, they had died out precisely because the church had replaced them with Christian alternatives.

It is Protestants who say that Catholic saints are really gods and goddesses. Celtic religion had died out until it was revived in its neo-form.

What sources do you have to support this? You keep arguing this but I don't recall you supporting your assertions. (Apologies, if you provided sources I missed.) There is a wealth of research in various disciplines that contradict your stance.

A brief example, this article from the JSTOR newsletter:

How Irish Holidays Blend Catholic and Pagan Traditions
Many Irish holidays blend the Catholic faith with ancient Celtic tradition and mythology. Some original pagan holidays are still practiced in Ireland today.

Excerpt:

"In the late 1800’s, while Ireland was still struggling against British rule and recovering from the Great Famine, an American ethnographer named James Mooney published a study on the culture of the people of Ireland. What he found was a series of holidays that blended the Catholic faith with ancient Celtic tradition and mythology. Many of the traditions Mooney documented are still practiced in some regions of Ireland today.

Interestingly, the holiday most strongly associated with Catholicism in Ireland also has strong ties to the country’s indigenous traditions.

St. Bridget’s Day, for instance, is a fire festival that is linked to the pagan Candelmas celebration. It is also associated with the Celtic deity Brigid...

Another, more familiar, pagan holiday that continues to be celebrated both in Ireland and abroad is Samhen, Hallow E’en (Halloween), or All Souls’ Day. Originally a harvest festival that celebrated the collection of seeds and the final fall crops, this holiday was so popular in ancient Ireland that the Catholic church decided to change its name to All Souls day and keep it, rather than try to convince people to give it up."
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Well, Bede describes the Anglo-saxon pagan calender, and their month of October was known as winterfylleth. It marks the beginning of winter with the first full moon, and samhain may have done the same, which raises questions on how similar the two cultures (celtic and anglo-saxon) may have been, in that part of the year

Yes, they divided the year into two seasons rather than four, Summer and Winter.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Isn't this a Neo-Pagan book? Sorry, but I have no respect for Neo-Paganism because, quite frankly, they lie.

They falisify history, claiming to be the continuation of Old Paganism, but the truth is that the Old Paganism died out, and there was no one to teach it. So the new Pagans did the best they could with the limited information in books, and added a whole bunch of stuff that they simply made up out of whole cloth.

In many cases, they left out stuff that they found unappealing, such as human sacrifice by the Celts in Central Europe.

And they don't actually believe in magick, which works every time. Instead they believe in magick as a form of prayer, which may or may not work. They even encourage their members to make up their own magick spells, which simply wouldn't happen if they truly believed in the integrity of magick.

The suggested book was written by John Arnott MacCulloch who was an eminent British scholar.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
You're not too familiar with Christian Christmas imagery, right? Jesus is basically a Sun god, especially in Catholicism around Christmas. The only reason people would think it's something negative to say is because they viewed "paganism" as something bad or something along those lines. Humans are not very original when it comes to our religious imagery and practices.

Oh puhleeze. This is, again, the sort of thing that makes it impossible for me to take you seriously.

If you truly believe that Jesus was a sun god, then you are displaying a phenomenal ignorance. Enough said. Let's just drop it.

from Biblical Archaeology.org:

"Helios, the Greek god of the sun (who was later often identified with Apollo, the god of light), is another ancient pagan figure whose image reverberated through monotheistic art; both Christians and Jews used the image of the Greek god of the sun in religious contexts. The Greek deity was most commonly depicted in a chariot drawn by four horses (the quadriga). The chariot represented the sun, and according to Greek mythology, the daily journey taken by the god across the sky was the source of sunlight."

In a Christian funerary context, the image of Christ as Helios is commonly interpreted as being representative of the resurrection. In early Jewish depictions, it has been hypothesized that the image of Helios, or simply the sun as in the case of the mosaic at Sepphoris, represents God’s omnipotence.

Equally well documented are images of Christ as Orpheus, particularly in the catacombs of Rome."

Christ as the Sun god (Roman: Sol Invictus; Greek: Apollo, Helios). "This mosaic part of a larger mosaic on the ceiling of the Tomb of Julli in the Vatican necropolis in Rome, is of Byzantine origin and is representative of Early Christian art. The mosaic is made of tesserae and depicts Christ as the sun god Sol Invictus in a chariot pulled by two white horses."

See also: Christos Helios
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
December 25 was one of the days that many did think was the actual birthday, which is one of the reasons it was chosen. Also it's proximity to the feast of the epiphany.

The original church was a Jewish sect that only celebrated the Jewish holy days. It evolved into the Gentile church that exists today with its own holy days -- no surprises there.

The early church didn't observe Jesus' birthday, reflecting pre-existing cultural influence of not celebrating birthdays. The church didn't adopt Dec. 25th as such until the 5th century, earlier traditions differed, placing it either sometime in March of November.

Nor is Dec. 25th absolute, Eastern orthodox celebrate it on January 7th.
 
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