• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Excuses, excuses

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Another one who's presence and posts in this specific thread are quite ironic
Did you read the post to which you responded? Throwing misinformation around indiscriminately only fuels the opposition’s points. I get the disenchantment, but it’s not serving your needs.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Notice the difference?

It says "I take thee".
It doesn't say "You MUST take me"
If you read the Scripture you might notice that it was a covenant God made with the Jewish people. They agreed to the terms of that covenant when they said, "all that the LORD had said we will do and be obedient". The Jews were then bound to the covenant by accepting its terms..
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Which is kind of interesting as an example, because in the case of this dictionary, if you reason that a certain word is spelled a certain way and then you see that this dictionary disagrees with you.... You'll conclude that your reasoning is wrong and go by what the book states instead.

So the exact opposite of what you do with your bible, as per your own acknolwedgement....

So what's that about?




And clearly, this moral reasoning and contemplation that you do, you do using tools not present in your bible.
Because if you read in your bible that mosaic law considers nothing wrong with the practice of slavery, your reasoning tells you this is not correct, because YOU consider it immoral.

So obviously, by necessity, your tools for moral evaluation, your moral compass, HAS TO come from elsewhere. If it came from the bible, you'ld have no basis to call slavery immoral. And you would, in fact, consider it moral. But you don't, do you?

Here we are again: bible says X is moral, your reasoning says X is immoral => you conclude X is immoral and the bible is wrong.

Obviously, not only you don't need to bible for moral guidance... you actively use something else instead. And you use that something else to evaluate morals exhibited in biblical stories.




I'll just flat out state it:
There is no good deed that could only be done out of religious motivations.
There are MANY bad deeds that could only be done out of religious motivations.

I'm an atheist and I think the bible (along with the quran and other scriptures) is an immoral, unethical, brutal, primitive, barbarian piece of garbage. I don't need it, I don't want it, I don't invoke it.

And I think altruism, empathy, compassion, solidarity,... all those are good values that we all should uphold. And I come to that reasoned conclusion on purely secular means. No gods, religions or scriptures required. At all.


IN FACT.... in MANY occasions, these religions / scripture are actually OBSTACLES in such reasoning.
Try and base your compassion and treatment of others on the bible and then try and use "biblical reasoning" to stand up for the rights and freedom of homosexuals, for example.

You can't do it. Because pretty much the only thing this book says about gays, is that you should kill them.



Ow, I totally get it. Don't get me wrong, I applaud your approach and I'm not trying to diss it or you or anything.

I'm just pointing out what I consider actually quite obvious.

From what you tell me, it seems that you have no use for your bible at all. You read it out of habbit or cultural / emotional bondage or something. That's fine off course.

But still, from my perspective: this books seems completely useless in your life. You might as well throw it away and it doesn't seem as if you'll miss it in practical terms.
I explained my approach and why I take that approach, which "works" for me but not necessarily you. I can accept that.

BTW, up until about three years ago, I really was quite agnostic in these matters, but something I experienced over a two year span changed that. Three years ago, if someone had posted what I experienced I would have felt in my mind "Ya, right! :rolleyes:"-- but then it happened to me. I wrote about this a couple of years ago in three very lengthy posts, but I have no desire to repeat it since it really is a personal experience that not everyone could relate to or find meaningful in their own lives. And I'm certain there are personal experiences in your lifetime that I probably can't relate to. Se la vie.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I still don't see any issue with the question, "If I love someone, I want to see that love reflected in the other, yes?"

God loves us. He wants us to love Him. He will continue to love us even if we don't love Him back.

That doesn't change His desire for us to love Him back.

I understand the imperfections in the Bible and know that it is not a complete or perfect record.

I still consider it scripture though. I just don't consider scripture to be without error.

I mean, men wrote it down right? Doesn't that immediately add a measure of imperfection?
It was specifically part of a reply about how God demands our love for Him. My side of the argument was that God, indeed, demands love from us. And I compared this to our Earthly relationships, within which, if someone were to demand that we love them, this would be a HUGE turn-off. That person would be considered arrogant, brash, uncouth, etc. But theists allow God to "get away with" demanding love from people, without batting an eye.

I quoted scripture (even Jesus' words) that display God (let's remember that Jesus was supposedly of divine origin - and many believe that his word is nearly as good as God's - in fact, I would almost go so far as to say that many people prize Jesus' words OVER God's - hence the whole reason people can dismiss huge swaths of the Old Testament, and yet embrace the New Testament) saying that His "command" is that we love Him.

And so, when a phrase comes back as an excuse for this sort of behavior (God demanding our love) and that excuse goes like this: "If I love someone, I want to see that love reflected in the other, yes?" it readily displays an admittance that God's love is conditional... and therefore it is NOT the greatest love that can be imagined. ESPECIALLY if He is demanding it.

See - it all works together - you have to have the full context of the argumentation and responses in order to see just how ridiculous God's love is being painted here. He's like a petulant, jealous, demanding child. God's mom apparently "spared the rod," eh?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It can’t actually. This is why we have scholars who exegete the texts. You ain’t one of them. Read my reply again. This is “how we live together as a tribe” stuff.
Oh, except that I have example after example after example of people (Whole slews of Christians, in fact) who take The Bible as a "whatever it means to you" proposition - and this is apparently perfectly acceptable in some circles. So guess what? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS. Like I care what Biblical scholars have to say. They're reading hearsay and reporting more of it. Whoop-dee doo.
I said that very thing.
I didn’t say that. I didn’t even imply it. If that’s what you’re taking away from it, you need to up your reading comprehension game.
So, God demanding love, if that love isn't reciprocated, it's no problem? Is that what you're saying? Can I get into heaven now then? I don't need to "love God," right? Or is it "more complicated" than that? Give me a break man.
God doesn’t say that. In fact, the Bible says that God is steadfast, even when we’re not.
Then WHY excuse a DEMAND for love with "When you love someone, you want them to love you back, yes?" WHAT DOES GOD DO IF WE DO NOT LOVE HIM? Are there any consequences? Be honest now.
In the end, you have managed to grossly misapprehension what I wrote. Your stories are not straight, and it shows. Please go back to “Dick and Jane,” if you can’t run with the big boys.
Oh... and you're part of "the big boys"? What the hell is going on here? Do you think I would ever say something so foolish to you? No... no I wouldn't. Your conceit is showing - you should buy a longer skirt.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
[


Ever heard of wedding vows?

"I, ___, take thee, ___, to be my wedded husband/wife, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part,
And this is a "demand" for love how? It explicitly states "I TAKE THEE" and then "TO HAVE AND TO HOLD, TO LOVE AND TO CHERISH."

It is ALL about how much you want to love the other person... NOT demanding the other person for love. Please show me where one person's words demand that the other love them. Please show me.

And do you know WHY it doesn't mention anything like that? Do you know WHY our proclamations of love do not include things like "You must love me?" Because saying that to someone is disgusting. It is vile, and repulsive. You do not have any place at all demanding that someone else love you. If you ever have, you should have your head examined.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
And this is a "demand" for love how? It explicitly states "I TAKE THEE" and then "TO HAVE AND TO HOLD, TO LOVE AND TO CHERISH."

It is ALL about how much you want to love the other person... NOT demanding the other person for love. Please show me where one person's words demand that the other love them. Please show me.

And do you know WHY it doesn't mention anything like that? Do you know WHY our proclamations of love do not include things like "You must love me?" Because saying that to someone is disgusting. It is vile, and repulsive. You do not have any place at all demanding that someone else love you. If you ever have, you should have your head examined.
You wouldn't expect the person you marry to love you?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You wouldn't expect the person you marry to love you?
How can you? All you can do is love them and hope that it is enough to evoke the same in them. You EARN love. Just as you earn respect.

For example, who would ever marry someone, and then just start doing whatever they wanted whenever they wanted to, and then when their partner complains, tell them they just need to "suck it up" because they are stuck being REQUIRED to love them? A fool would do this, and a fool would also be surprised when their partner fell "out of love" with them due to their abhorrent behavior.

Remember - we're not talking about some "innocuous hope" that the other person will continue to love you here - we're talking about DEMANDING - you know, like God does.
 
Top