exchemist
Veteran Member
It is not objective evidence.
It is personal, spiritual, individual, hence subjective. So it can convince the individual but cannot convince others.
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Can God be proven to exist?
- Thread starter firedragon
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- does god exist
It is personal, spiritual, individual, hence subjective. So it can convince the individual but cannot convince others.
A blind person can do some simple tests to see if people really have sight.
For instance, if people really can see, their answers will generally agree about what they see.
OTOH, if they're hallucinating and only think they see, there won't be agreement.
... and when we look at the people who claim to be able to see evidence for God, we have something like the second case: lots of certainty, but no agreement.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
And I replied OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE. Do you have any?
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
That is the same thing that the blind man can say about color or light.
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
You are claiming that the blind man can use the testimony of others to come to know the truth of color and light for himself?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Mate. I am not trying to prove anything in this thread. I am asking for thoughts for my personal knowledge of your thoughts. So please excuse me if I am not engaging in trying to prove my faith or anything like that. With all due respect.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Mate, you're the one who asked me what evidence I would need for a immanent God... as if it would somehow be different from what I'd require for any other kind of a god. Is there something you don't like about the answer: objective verifiable evidence?
exchemist
Veteran Member
Not at all. Reproducible evidence, which is the way objectivity is sought in science, is evidence that can be observed by different people in different places using different methods. It thus requires to be agreed upon by a range of people, precisely to avoid the issue of one observer being somehow unable to make the observation, for whatever reason.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Peace.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Because the prophet says God is doing it. And if there was no God doing it, but a Spirit, the Spirit would not allow the prophet to lie. Would have power to let us know, it was not God.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
As an atheist, I do not have a personal concept of god. As I think about it, why would anyone have a "personal" concept of god? Should they not have an ACTUAL concept of god??? Maybe because there isn't one to access??? Just saying.....
I do not know what evidence is sufficient to confirm the existence of a particular god for a particular individual. But I would think that the god would know what that evidence would be. And knowing what evidence is required for a given individual, said god would provide such evidence or not at it's whim, so it is not up to me, it is up to the god.
No; I'm saying that a blind man can tell the difference between consistent reports from sighted people and nonsense that's inconsistent because it's being made up by people who are just as blind as he is.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Can we objectively prove eternal omnipotence?
firedragon
Veteran Member
As an atheist, many have the "friend in the sky" concept of God in their mind. Its not that they believe in this God, but thats the concept of God they understand other have. This understanding changes a lot. So there is no "one concept of God".
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
I have no idea. but if we can't then there is no reason to believe it exists as a thing.
nPeace
Veteran Member
For me, I look at things in a realistic way.
As a parent, how would my children know that I am their father, if I am completely absent from their life? How would they know I care, if I never showed it?
So if God is, and created life, then he is either loving or unloving; caring, or uncaring.
If he is both loving and caring, then he would want his creation - his children - to know that. So instead of being absent from their lives, or not showing that he cares, he be there, and demonstrate that he cares.
From what I can see, he has done more than that.
Though invisible and absolutely awesome in power so that his very presence would annihilate his children, God left visible evidence of his being, and his supportive care.
Evidence #1
(Romans 1:19, 20) . . .what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.
(Psalm 19:1) The heavens are declaring the glory of God; The skies above proclaim the work of his hands.
(Acts 14:17) although he did not leave himself without witness in that he did good, giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying you with food and filling your hearts with gladness.
Evidence #2
God reveals details about himself (his name, personality, etc.), through his written word - a book like no other, and with a history like no other.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
The witness God gives of the truthfulness of his word, is seen in the fact that...
1. Reliable prophecy is not of human origin - which the Bible is packed with.
(2 Peter 1:20, 21) For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.
2. Scientific truths are revealed in the Bible long before being discovered by modern science.
3. The Bible evidently contains timeless practical value, and wisdom.
4. The Bible apparently contains a reliable history, of real people, events, and customs, etc.
5. The Bible contains one theme, and one story throughout, though a collection of writings from numerous, and various penmen - indicating one author.
Evidence #3
God shows his support and care...
1. through faithful human servant inspired or directed...
2. through his holy spirit.
3. through angelic support and direction.
4. through open communication via prayer, and real experience.
Because faith is not a possession of all people (2 Thessalonians 3:2), since it is a product of God's holy spirit (Galatians 5:22, 23), not everyone will benefit from the third line of evidence.
(Hebrews 11:6)
Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.
Regardless of the amount of evidence available, there will be those who willfully ignore it, while claiming not to see it.
(Psalm 10:4)
In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: “There is no God.”
(Romans 1:18, 21)
For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way. . .
For although they knew God [see evidence of his being], they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened.
(Ecclesiastes 3:11)
Everything he has made pretty in its time. Even time indefinite he has put in their heart, that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
I think you can show that there is a pattern of God encounters in dreams which has certain common elements. This shows that God is an objective psychological experience but it says nothing about God being physically real.
For me, I look at things in a realistic way.
As a parent, how would my children know that I am their father, if I am completely absent from their life? How would they know I care, if I never showed it?
So if God is, and created life, then he is either loving or unloving; caring, or uncaring.
If he is both loving and caring, then he would want his creation - his children - to know that. So instead of being absent from their lives, or not showing that he cares, he be there, and demonstrate that he cares.
From what I can see, he has done more than that.
Though invisible and absolutely awesome in power so that his very presence would annihilate his children, God left visible evidence of his being, and his supportive care.
Evidence #1
(Romans 1:19, 20) . . .what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.
(Psalm 19:1) The heavens are declaring the glory of God; The skies above proclaim the work of his hands.
(Acts 14:17) although he did not leave himself without witness in that he did good, giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying you with food and filling your hearts with gladness.
Evidence #2
God reveals details about himself (his name, personality, etc.), through his written word - a book like no other, and with a history like no other.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
The witness God gives of the truthfulness of his word, is seen in the fact that...
1. Reliable prophecy is not of human origin - which the Bible is packed with.
(2 Peter 1:20, 21) For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.
2. Scientific truths are revealed in the Bible long before being discovered by modern science.
3. The Bible evidently contains timeless practical value, and wisdom.
4. The Bible apparently contains a reliable history, of real people, events, and customs, etc.
5. The Bible contains one theme, and one story throughout, though a collection of writings from numerous, and various penmen - indicating one author.
Evidence #3
God shows his support and care...
1. through faithful human servant inspired or directed...
2. through his holy spirit.
3. through angelic support and direction.
4. through open communication via prayer, and real experience.
Because faith is not a possession of all people (2 Thessalonians 3:2), since it is a product of God's holy spirit (Galatians 5:22, 23), not everyone will benefit from the third line of evidence.
(Hebrews 11:6)
Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.
Regardless of the amount of evidence available, there will be those who willfully ignore it, while claiming not to see it.
(Psalm 10:4)
In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: “There is no God.”
(Romans 1:18, 21)
For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way. . .
For although they knew God [see evidence of his being], they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened.
(Ecclesiastes 3:11)
Everything he has made pretty in its time. Even time indefinite he has put in their heart, that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish.
None of that is evidence of the existence of a god.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I don't have any particular concept of "god" and that is also why I can't answer the other questions. I'ld have to have a pretty clear definition of what a god is or is supposed to be, before I can say what kind of evidence I'ld expect to see or would want to see.
I don't believe in any particular god and I also don't claim any particular god exists. So it doesn't seem to be upto me to come up with a defenition or concept of what a god is or is supposed to be.
Those who claim a god exists would have to tell me what they believe god to be. It's upto them to define the god they believe in.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
That's again just a claim.
The equivalent of me saying "all humans deep down know there is no god".