Is Halloween evil?

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Trick or treating have nothing to do with Samhaim. It's an American tradition that developed in the 20th century.

Wrong:
"During some Celtic celebrations of Samhain, villagers disguised themselves in costumes made of animal skins to drive away phantom visitors; banquet tables were prepared and food was left out to placate unwelcome spirits.

In later centuries, people began dressing as ghosts, demons and other malevolent creatures, performing antics in exchange for food and drink. This custom, known as mumming, dates back to the Middle Ages and is thought to be an antecedent of trick-or-treating."
https://www.history.com/news/halloween-trick-or-treating-origins

It has its roots in Samhain and evolved throughout the centuries.

Callisto · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Trick or treating have nothing to do with Samhaim. It's an American tradition that developed in the 20th century.

It's a Samhain custom. People went from neighbor to neighbor, in costumes, collecting food in exchange for reciting a song or poem. Sharing food was thought to incur good luck, refusing to could cause misfortune.

Costumes were worn and various gourds were carved into jack o' lanterns to confuse and ward off evil spirits, respectively.

Callisto · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Halloween is an imagination celebration. It's roots are the Christian holy days of All Souls Day and All Saints Day. It is not connected with Samhain. If it were pagan, it would be a harvest festival or something similar.

Samhain is the last harvest festival of the year and marked the beginning of winter. It'I also a time when the boundary between the physical and spirit world is thin, allowing spirits to more readily cross back and would need to be appeased. The church christianized that aspect of the festival.

sealchan · Oct 17, 2019

ideogenous_mover said:
The funny thing is though, I think we americans actually seem to carry a lot of traditions that I think got forgotten in a way. I mean Halloween is an ancient, ancient holiday. Why we should have it here is sort of beyond me

It's our playful dance with death. Otherwise death is largely an ignored reality, a topic too difficult to discuss. That's its role in our collective psyche. A ritual in which we encounter and banish fear mainly experienced through children or the glut of horror movies which come out at that time. I pronounce Stephen King as the cultural ambassador of Halloween along with Tim Burton.

sealchan · Oct 17, 2019

ChristineM said:
Where i live, Halloween was unheard of 5 years ago. American and Canadian friends along with our family started putting up decorations outside our houses and got our kids to invite a few french kids to go trick or treating.

Met with bewilderment by at the french at first, but for the last couple of years they are catching on and joining in. Last year we had 8 groups of trick or treaters (we hope for more this year), the year before five and the year before that only 2.

We live in a small (mostly catholic village) and consider this a major step in cultural relations.

It is closely followed by Toussaints, or all saints day/day of the dead. Where local villagers spend their day at the cemetery, having a picnic lunch, chatting and offering a drink or two to their dead ancestors. So maybe Halloween is not that weird.

I see the Dia de Muertos decor catching on in the US as of late. A welcome artistic expansion of the skeleton motif IMO.

exchemist · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Halloween is an imagination celebration. It's roots are the Christian holy days of All Souls Day and All Saints Day. It is not connected with Samhain. If it were pagan, it would be a harvest festival or something similar.

It seems All Saints was originally in April and was moved to 1st November by Pope Gregory III. Not clear whether this was linked to Samhain, but it would seem odd for that to be the case since Samhain was a Celtic festival, whereas the Catholic Church was all over Western Europe.

But having a festival around the Equinox, marking the transition from summer to winter, seems to have been pretty common, so it may be that that played a role on the choice of date. The church has often been happy to "christen" existing festivals, rather than try to ban them and thus antagonise people who value their traditions. This seems to me an intelligent approach.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 17, 2019

Saint Frankenstein said:
Wrong:
"During some Celtic celebrations of Samhain, villagers disguised themselves in costumes made of animal skins to drive away phantom visitors; banquet tables were prepared and food was left out to placate unwelcome spirits.

In later centuries, people began dressing as ghosts, demons and other malevolent creatures, performing antics in exchange for food and drink. This custom, known as mumming, dates back to the Middle Ages and is thought to be an antecedent of trick-or-treating."
https://www.history.com/news/halloween-trick-or-treating-origins

It has its roots in Samhain and evolved throughout the centuries.

First of all, dressing up as animals is a far cry from the costumes we have today.

Second of all, these practices DIED OUT. Trick or treating began in the 20th century. It is only coincidence that there is any similarity. You might as well draw similarity between Trick or Treating and masquerade balls, it is just as unrelated but alike in some ways.

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
First of all, dressing up as animals is a far cry from the costumes we have today.

Second of all, these practices DIED OUT. Trick or treating began in the 20th century. It is only coincidence that there is any similarity. You might as well draw similarity between Trick or Treating and masquerade balls, it is just as unrelated but alike in some ways.

Did you even read the article? I said it has roots in the ancient practice, not that it's a one to one continuous connection. People were trick or treating in the British Isles for centuries before the practice came to America, so you're wrong there, too. It's the same as how the trappings of Christmas (evergreens, wreaths, miseltoe, Santa and his reindeer, etc.) all have roots in Baltic and Germanic folklore and pre-Christian religion.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 17, 2019

Callisto said:
It's a Samhain custom. People went from neighbor to neighbor, in costumes, collecting food in exchange for reciting a song or poem. Sharing food was thought to incur good luck, refusing to could cause misfortune.

Costumes were worn and various gourds were carved into jack o' lanterns to confuse and ward off evil spirits, respectively.

It DIED OUT. Trick or Treating was created in the 20th century.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 17, 2019

Callisto said:
Samhain is the last harvest festival of the year and marked the beginning of winter. It'I also a time when the boundary between the physical and spirit world is thin, allowing spirits to more readily cross back and would need to be appeased. The church christianized that aspect of the festival.

All you are doing is backing up my point. Samhain is a harvest festival. Halloween is connect to All Souls Day/ All Saints Day, which is a very Christian holy day.

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
It DIED OUT. Trick or Treating was created in the 20th century.

"In Britain and Ireland, the tradition of going house to house collecting food at Halloween goes back at least as far as the 16th century, as had the tradition of people wearing costumes at Halloween. In 19th century Britain and Ireland there are many accounts of people going house to house in costume at Halloween, reciting verses in exchange for food, and sometimes warning of misfortune if they were not welcomed.[1] The Scottish Halloween custom of "guising" – children disguised in costume going from house to house for food or money;[2] – is first recorded in North America in 1911 in Ontario, Canada.[3] In North America, trick-or-treating has been a Halloween tradition since the 1920s."
Trick-or-treating - Wikipedia

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 17, 2019

exchemist said:
It seems All Saints was originally in April and was moved to 1st November by Pope Gregory III. Not clear whether this was linked to Samhain, but it would seem odd for that to be the case since Samhain was a Celtic festival, whereas the Catholic Church was all over Western Europe.

But having a festival around the Equinox, marking the transition from summer to winter, seems to have been pretty common, so it may be that that played a role on the choice of date. The church has often been happy to "christen" existing festivals, rather than try to ban them and thus antagonise people who value their traditions. This seems to me an intelligent approach.

The equinox is more than a month before.

The whole point of the Christianization was to END pagan holidays, to offer SUBSTITUTES so that people would STOP being pagan. So it's rather stupid for people to insist that the Church is really pagan, don't you think?

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
The equinox is more than a month before.

The whole point of the Christianization was to END pagan holidays, to offer SUBSTITUTES so that people would STOP being pagan. So it's rather stupid for people to insist that the Church is really pagan, don't you think?

They didn't "end" indigenous holidays. They just gave them a Christian veneer to make it easier to convert the locals. You see this in a number of ways, including how many of the "saints" are actually demoted deities, like St. Brigid, who is actually a Celtic goddess.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 17, 2019

Saint Frankenstein said:
Did you even read the article? I said it has roots in the ancient practice, not that it's a one to one continuous connection. People were trick or treating in the British Isles for centuries before the practice came to America, so you're wrong there, too. It's the same as how the trappings of Christmas (evergreens, wreaths, miseltoe, Santa and his reindeer, etc.) all have roots in Baltic and Germanic folklore and pre-Christian religion.

I read what you quoted. A link is only there to provide the source of a quote. It's not a substitute for a written post. If you want to cite something else in the link, please quote it now. I don't know anything about there being a continuous practice. If you can show it, I will more than gladly back down. I do appreciate learning new things, and would gladly be in your debt. But you have to do the homework. To the best of my knowledge, Trick or Treating in the US was non-existent until the middle of the 20th century.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 17, 2019

Saint Frankenstein said:
"In Britain and Ireland, the tradition of going house to house collecting food at Halloween goes back at least as far as the 16th century, as had the tradition of people wearing costumes at Halloween. In 19th century Britain and Ireland there are many accounts of people going house to house in costume at Halloween, reciting verses in exchange for food, and sometimes warning of misfortune if they were not welcomed.[1] The Scottish Halloween custom of "guising" – children disguised in costume going from house to house for food or money;[2] – is first recorded in North America in 1911 in Ontario, Canada.[3] In North America, trick-or-treating has been a Halloween tradition since the 1920s."
Trick-or-treating - Wikipedia

This is good. I may have to take back what I said.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 17, 2019

Saint Frankenstein said:
They didn't "end" indigenous holidays. They just gave them a Christian veneer to make it easier to convert the locals. You see this in a number of ways, including how many of the "saints" are actually demoted deities, like St. Brigid, who is actually a Celtic goddess.

Actually YES, they ended the pagan holidays. Until the Neo Paganism quasi-revived such holidays, they had died out precisely because the church had replaced them with Christian alternatives.

It is Protestants who say that Catholic saints are really gods and goddesses. Celtic religion had died out until it was revived in its neo-form.

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Actually YES, they ended the pagan holidays. Until the Neo Paganism quasi-revived such holidays, they had died out precisely because the church had replaced them with Christian alternatives.

It is Protestants who say that Catholic saints are really gods and goddesses. Celtic religion had died out until it was revived in its neo-form.

They ended the open practice of the original form of them but they really just tacked on Christian meanings to the holidays. Christmas and Easter have pretty much all of their seasonal symbolism intact to this day. Christmas is still pretty much celebrated as a festival for the rebirth of the Sun. They didn't even try too hard to move away from that stuff.

Well, the Protestants are correct various instances. It's because the Catholics and the Orthodox tended to take a "baptize the culture" approach at times rather than completely destroying the cultures they were converting (although they more or less did that at other times). Brigid is an obvious example but you also have the cult of Perun (basically the Slavic cognant of Thor) being continued under the guise of Elijah the Thunderer. People didn't just forget who they are and start from scratch again. Many things continued, just under a Christian guise.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 17, 2019

Saint Frankenstein said:
Christmas is still pretty much celebrated as a festival for the rebirth of the Sun.

It's when you say stuff like this that I simply can't take you seriously.

amorphous_constellation · Oct 17, 2019

As an 'irish-american' I'll throw in a couple cents

IndigoChild5559 said:
First of all, dressing up as animals is a far cry from the costumes we have today.

Not really. I think in celtic religion, the soul could represent animals and beings that are imaginary. And as Halloween / Samhain is the new year, that's when they all appear on the earth

IndigoChild5559 said:
It is Protestants who say that Catholic saints are really gods and goddesses.

Here, read chapter five of this book, "The Religion of the Ancient Celts." Brigid was our goddess of knowledge among other things. She was one figure among many turned into a saint.

Religion of the Ancient Celts.

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 17, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
It's when you say stuff like this that I simply can't take you seriously.

You're not too familiar with Christian Christmas imagery, right? Jesus is basically a Sun god, especially in Catholicism around Christmas. The only reason people would think it's something negative to say is because they viewed "paganism" as something bad or something along those lines. Humans are not very original when it comes to our religious imagery and practices.

Is Halloween evil?

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