Excuses, excuses

sojourner said:

I don’t believe that for a second. That’s not biblical. It might be a widely-held misapprehension of the texts, but it certainly isn’t the intended meaning.

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Says you. I read the bible many times-- it's quite clear Jesus was so distressed at the thought of his followers being tortured forever, he recommended they maim themselves first...

I'll take what is written, thanks: It's a brutal, ugly and hideously immoral book.

Reading the bible continues to make me the Atheist I am Today.

JesusKnowsYou said:

This is not accurate.

I can think of several parables of the Savior that describe people receiving just punishment.

Have you not read the New Testament?

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Please be specific.

sojourner said:

If you go against gravity, “lifelong” takes on a whole different meaning. Just sayin’...

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It could end one's suffering right quick as well I suppose.

The laws of physics are a jealous pantheon.

sojourner said:

You do understand that none of this is “what God said,” right? This is cultural more, dictated and written by people. Do you know the reasons why these laws were set out in the first place? this isn’t “God being immoral.” This is “people being human and making power plays.” If you don’t understand that aspect of the texts, then please try something a little simpler than tearing down something you don’t understand — like converting oxygen, for instance.

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Oh, snap! I do not believe any gods actually exist in the first place-- atheist, remember?

Of COURSE it's a brutal, ugly, misogynistic book of torture, rape, murder-- and worse.

Of COURSE it's from a brutal, Bronze Age and ugly culture that were so ignorant, they didn't know where the sun went at night...

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Says you. I read the bible many times-- it's quite clear Jesus was so distressed at the thought of his followers being tortured forever, he recommended they maim themselves first...

I'll take what is written, thanks: It's a brutal, ugly and hideously immoral book.

Reading the bible continues to make me the Atheist I am Today.

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Says you. Quantity of reading =/= quality of reading.

sojourner said:

If you go against gravity, “lifelong” takes on a whole different meaning. Just sayin’...

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In direct contrast to the promise of the bible-god, who promises to torture you well beyond death-- for ever and ever and ever for endless suffering and woe.

I'll take 'gravity', for 'More Moral Than God', Alex.

sojourner said:

Says you. Quantity of reading =/= quality of reading.

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Strawman projection of you. Apparently only YOU can "read" the bible and twist it into saying the exact opposite of what's actually written.

I can see how handy that comes in, when you read Exodus 21, on the care and feeding of your human slaves...

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Oh, snap! I do not believe any gods actually exist in the first place-- atheist, remember?

Of COURSE it's a brutal, ugly, misogynistic book of torture, rape, murder-- and worse.

Of COURSE it's from a brutal, Bronze Age and ugly culture that were so ignorant, they didn't know where the sun went at night...

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See? Was that so difficult? But seriously, here’s the thing:

We have to weigh the texts. We have to weigh them against each other, against our own morality, against reason, and against other things. Jesus did that very thing, we’re told. Just because the texts accurately reflect the humanity of those who produced them doesn’t mean that we have to take those teachings at face value — nor should we. If you read past that garbage, there’s a lot worth reading. The Bible is a great repository of how our religious forebears understood themselves and their world, and how they understood their spirituality. None of that means that we have to live that way. But when you get into the esoterics, then a deeper understanding of the human condition can be gained.

You know, oven cleaner smells horrible. And it’s a bloody mess. But if it cleans the oven...

Bob the Unbeliever said:

In direct contrast to the promise of the bible-god, who promises to torture you well beyond death-- for ever and ever and ever for endless suffering and woe.

I'll take 'gravity', for 'More Moral Than God', Alex.

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Again: says you.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Strawman projection of you. Apparently only YOU can "read" the bible and twist it into saying the exact opposite of what's actually written.

I can see how handy that comes in, when you read Exodus 21, on the care and feeding of your human slaves...

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It’s become painfully obvious that you don’t understand “what’s actually written.”
“What’s actually written” includes “why,” “by whom,” and “for what reasons,” as well as “under what circumstances.” If you take all those under consideration, it’s only then that we come to a conclusion of “what the texts actually say.”

sojourner said:

So God didn’t save humanity from the flood? God didn’t spare Cain? God didn’t spare Isaac? God didn’t pull Israel out of some very tough scrapes? God didn’t spare Daniel? God didn’t sacrifice God’s self for us?
.

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Correct: god did none of those fictional things.

Moreover? How can an immortal being "sacrifice" itself to itself to create a loophole in the laws it created in the first place?

It cannot: there was no actual sacrifice. A hungover weekend, at best...

sojourner said:

Again: says you.

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And the majority of the planet too... seeing as how most of the planet is not christian of any flavor...

sojourner said:

It is measured by that which serves us and makes more — not less — of us.

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I cannot agree with this premise if I understand it correctly.

There are things about every person that need to be corrected and/or removed.

That whole "if they right hand offend thee" concept.

Also, what makes you think that you have the power/authority to make this determination?

sojourner said:

Tell that to a Muslim, a Hindu, or a Buddhist. Or even someone from a very different culture. “Sin” is a fluid concept.

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I also disagree with this premise.

To sin is to violate an eternal law.

So, unless eternal laws are also "fluid" (they aren't) then sin is not a fluid concept.

People may disagree or misinterpret, but that doesn't really change anything, does it?

sojourner said:

And that truth comes to us colored by the cultural lens and biases of those who wrote the texts.

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Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that these is an objective non-colored "truth" right?

What we believe won't change that truth.

I believe homosexual behavior to be sinful, independent of any culture or text.

sojourner said:

What kind of activity? Rape? Incest? Pedophilia? Or normal, legal adult behavior?

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You can't conflate what is "legal" with what is morally right. They often aren't the same thing.

As to your question, all of the above!

Any and all sexual activity between members of the same sex is sinful.

sojourner said:

Sux to be you...

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Hardly.

I'm grounded. Consistent. Stable.

You, on the other hand, seem to be tossed around by anyone'es subjective opinion of reality.

sojourner said:

See above. This “information” comes to us through several lenses of bias.

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Take all this information to God. Just you and Him.

That's what all of us should ultimately do with any new information we receive.

You can sort out what is or is not true by appealing to Him and receiving the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

The bible speaks of horrific atrocity that it's god demanded happen.

Rape slaves. Genocide. Infanticide. Slavery. The list is endless...

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When did God demand the raping of anyone let alone slaves?

God did command ancient Israel to destroy a people that had been trying to destroy Israel for centuries.

The ancient world was one that included slavery.

What would you have ancient Israel do? Release prisoners so they could attack them again or kill them all?

Bob the Unbeliever said:

If god was so afraid of an smallish tall building getting up to heaven? Then? God would be terrified beyond measure of an airplane or rocket...

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God was not afraid of the Tower or anything else.

The people were building the thing in order to wage war on God.

He gave them time to come to their senses and when they didn't he separated them.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Correct: god did none of those fictional things.

Moreover? How can an immortal being "sacrifice" itself to itself to create a loophole in the laws it created in the first place?

It cannot: there was no actual sacrifice. A hungover weekend, at best...

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This isn’t fiction. It’s theology. You’ve gotta get out of your head the idea that this stuff actually happened in history. These are mythological tales. That you don’t “get” the myths is your problem. There’s nothing wrong with the Bible — or the stories.

JJ50 said:

If the Biblical god character exists and is as evil as that book depicts as being , why do some believers make excuses for its disgusting behaviour?

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There's more than one way of reading the Bible. Most of the people who depict the biblical god as very wrathful, ordering genocides and so on are ignorant literalists who don't know the historical contexts and ignore metaphor and allegory. Most sophisticated scholars and theologians have long sense moved past such juvenile readings.

JesusKnowsYou said:

There are things about every person that need to be corrected and/or removed

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To rid oneself of what does not serve us is part of the definition of spirituality.

JesusKnowsYou said:

Also, what makes you think that you have the power/authority to make this determination?

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That’s the ministry to which I’ve been called and ordained. What makes you think that I don’t?

JesusKnowsYou said:

To sin is to violate an eternal law

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OK. But not all the Levitican laws are such eternal laws. Otherwise, no one would be wearing 50/50 cotton/poly.

JesusKnowsYou said:

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that these is an objective non-colored "truth" right?

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There may be, but we still color that truth through our own lens.

JesusKnowsYou said:

I believe homosexual behavior to be sinful, independent of any culture or text

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Doesn’t matter what you believe. It may not be right for you, but it is right for others.

JesusKnowsYou said:

Any and all sexual activity between members of the same sex is sinful

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No. It’s not. The Bible certainly doesn’t say that.

JesusKnowsYou said:

You, on the other hand, seem to be tossed around by anyone'es subjective opinion of reality

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Don’t confuse openness with being ungrounded.

JJ50 said:

If the Biblical god character exists and is as evil as that book depicts as being , why do some believers make excuses for its disgusting behaviour?

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so....you would be willing tell the Almighty
He is evil
To His Face

not that I think He is evil

but I will stand back as you attempt to say so
to His Face

sojourner said:

There’s nothing wrong with the Bible — or the stories.

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Moral depravity. You think nothing is wrong with owning people.

Thief said:

so....you would be willing tell the Almighty
He is evil
To His Face

not that I think He is evil

but I will stand back as you attempt to say so
to His Face

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Not only that? I'd be ready to spit in this beast's egomaniac face.

If god was willing to offer an apology? I may.... MAY... listen.