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Excuses, excuses

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I understand that this opinion is commonly held, but it leads me to ask, "How is the spirituality of humanity defined and measured
It is measured by that which serves us and makes more — not less — of us.

There can be no subjectivity when it comes to a universal concept like "sin". Either something is or is not sinfu
Tell that to a Muslim, a Hindu, or a Buddhist. Or even someone from a very different culture. “Sin” is a fluid concept.

I believe that God is the source of all truth. It is He who has clearly defined what is or is not sinful
And that truth comes to us colored by the cultural lens and biases of those who wrote the texts.

The quoted Biblical verse condemns homosexual sexual activity as sinful, not same-sex attraction alone
What kind of activity? Rape? Incest? Pedophilia? Or normal, legal adult behavior?
Even though I understand that you do not agree with this I just can't accept it.
Sux to be you...

To me, God has shared what is or is not sinful behavior and we can avoid sin by keeping His commandments
See above. This “information” comes to us through several lenses of bias.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Your first sentence says it all.

And if you happened to be a 14 yr old virgin, and
the soldiers came, killed all of your family but
you-then forcibly stripped you so they acn
examine your vagina and see if you are a virgin,
(if not you will be killed)...
And since you are a virgin you are carried away
to be a sex slave.

I expect you'd see nothing wrong with that either.

Or if it were your daughter; no prob.

Total and absolute moral bankruptcy.

The sooner we drive a stake thro the heart of
such a religion the better
.

Winner. Then? I unchecked my response... and thought about which was apropos. Winner again.

And one more time? Unchecked. And, yep: Winner for the 3rd time in a row.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
You do not see anything wrong with the brutal murder of millions of babies? Innocent children? To say nothing of all the drowning kittens, puppies and other critters?

That's beyond EVIL, that's what that is!
Let's try to put this into the proper perspective.

First off, I believe that all of Mankind lived with God as spirits before coming to the Earth.

God had an entire generation of people on Earth focused on wickedness and violence.

He had sent prophets (such as Noah) to teach these people to amend their ways for centuries, but to no avail.

Then imagine a spirit child of God, who will soon leave Him to be born upon the Earth, comes to Him and asks,

"Is it fair for me to be sent to such a world where I will be taught evil continually? Is it fair that I will be taught to reject you and the truth and thus live a life of wickedness that would cause me to lose my salvation? Is that fair?"

And the obvious answer is, "No, it is not fair."

When you apply an eternal perspective, God removing someone from mortality is no different than a parent placing on of their children in a "time out".

If God had not done what He had done then more than likely he human race would have ceased to exist due to violence.

However, if we did manage to survive, none of us would become eligible for salvation.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Again: no cultural implications. I’m not making excuses; yes, the texts do talk about “how to have slaves.” But you’ve got to take under consideration the fact that slavery was a way of life in that culture. it simply doesn’t translate to the modern world in that instance.

So? Wearing blended fabrics was also a way of life in that culture...

But the bible-god felt secure enough to forbid it!

Eating shellfish? Eating pork? Was so very much a way of life in that time and place-- pigs were literally one of the first food animals to be domesticated, even!

But bible-god felt secure enough to forbid those things too...

But bible-god was too afraid to forbid the OWNING OF PEOPLE?

Moral Bankruptcy, Right There!
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Murdering the innocent to get at the allegedly "guilty"? THE HALLMARK OF PURE EVIL VINDICTIVE MONSTER.
What is murder? Is it not the unjustified or unlawful taking of life?

What if it is lawful and completely justified?

God removed one generation of Man so that there could be future generations of Man.

God removed the wicked to save the righteous.

If any innocents were removed during the Flood, they returned to God and are well.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
100% failure to demonstrate a single Godly Action. Zip. Zero. Nada
So God didn’t save humanity from the flood? God didn’t spare Cain? God didn’t spare Isaac? God didn’t pull Israel out of some very tough scrapes? God didn’t spare Daniel? God didn’t sacrifice God’s self for us?

If god exists? It's principle attribute is to be unconvincing to anyone insisting on Divine Evidence
Perhaps “evidence” isn’t within the parameters of spiritual endeavors.

That means it is either entirely indifferent? Or? Doesn't exist in the first place
yes, the problem of theodicy is huge. You conclude that “God doesn’t care.” I conclude that “God stands with us in our suffering.” Which is “right?” Doesn’t matter. What matters is: which serves us better?

The bible speaks of horrific atrocity that it's god demanded happen.

Rape slaves. Genocide. Infanticide. Slavery. The list is endless
I thought I asked for specifics, with references. You’re argumentally flailing your arms here.

If god was so afraid of an smallish tall building getting up to heaven? Then? God would be terrified beyond measure of an airplane or rocket
is that really all you got from the story? How sad. I bet you would skim the surface of the ocean and claim that “fish don’t exist; I don’t see any.”
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Well, Gravity never demands that you worship it, in exchange for NOT being tortured forever....

.... so there's that.

Might Makes Right is a failed moral philosophy. The bible's god? 100% Might Makes Right-- just a big bully, really. Good thing it's also a big myth.


Sure it does. Go against the will of gravity and one can find one's self in a life long experience of pain and suffering or of the results of identifying whether or not there is an afterlife.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The bible's god kills at a whim. That's pretty evil. In Exodus 21? The bible's god explains how to trick someone into being a life-time slave. That's pretty evil.

Elsewhere, the bible's god demands that all the people are brutally murdered, except for the virgin girl-babies. Those are to be taken as sex slaves instead.

And that one time? When bible-god brutally drowns all the puppies, kittens, butterflies and other Beautiful Things, just because bible-god could. That's a whole lower level of evil.

But the worst of them all? Brutal murder of a scape goat, in a horrific display of brutality, just to create a loophole in "law" that bible-god created in the first place...!

Why is it impossible for bible-god to simply forgive? Why does it require BRUTAL MURDER first?

Lame.
Go look up the definition of “mythology.” And “metaphor,” while you’re at it. If you think the biblical writers actually thought God literally did all these things, you’d be sadly mistaken. When you treat these as literal, you’re setting up a straw man.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Let's try to put this into the proper perspective.

First off, I believe that all of Mankind lived with God as spirits before coming to the Earth..

So? That does not excuse the brutal murder of the ENTIRE PLANET. It only makes it WORSE.

God had an entire generation of people on Earth focused on wickedness and violence..

So freaking WHAT? DOES THAT INCLUDE THE LITTLE BABIES WHO COULD NOT EVEN SPEAK?

Brutal MURDER.
He had sent prophets (such as Noah) to teach these people to amend their ways for centuries, but to no avail..

Nope. Noah was a serious SCREW-UP. A drunken sot. A man SO BRUTAL, that his wife of 600 years only granted him FOUR SONS!

Not good enough.
Then imagine a spirit child of God, who will soon leave Him to be born upon the Earth, comes to Him and asks,

"Is it fair for me to be sent to such a world where I will be taught evil continually? Is it fair that I will be taught to reject you and the truth and thus live a life of wickedness that would cause me to lose my salvation? Is that fair?".

Imagine? 100% correct-- PURE IMAGINATION YOU ARE DOING THERE-- AND NOT REMOTELY MORAL, EITHER. You are making MY case here!
And the obvious answer is, "No, it is not fair."

When you apply an eternal perspective, God removing someone from mortality is no different than a parent placing on of their children in a "time out"..

EXCEPT THE PARENT IS NOT MURDERING THE CHILD IN COLD BLOOD!


Comparison? FAIL-- to 100%!
If God had not done what He had done then more than likely he human race would have ceased to exist due to violence..

LMAO! Your horribly inept godling could think of NOTHING ELSE than to DESTROY THE WHOLE PLANET? BIRDS. TREES. ALL ANIMALS. ALL FLOWERS.

Your god must REALLY HATE PUPPIES.
However, if we did manage to survive, none of us would become eligible for salvation.

LOL! Yeah-- your god is SO BRUTAL, SO INCOMPETENT, that it cannot muster up "forgive" WITHOUT A BRUTAL MURDER FIRST. THE MORE BRUTAL THE TORTURE-MURDER? THE BETTER YOUR GOD LIKES IT.

That's one sick monster you got there-- it'd be a SHAME if it were actually REAL.

Your god? Worse than the equally fictional Voldemort. Seriously.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Go look up the definition of “mythology.” And “metaphor,” while you’re at it. If you think the biblical writers actually thought God literally did all these things, you’d be sadly mistaken. When you treat these as literal, you’re setting up a straw man.

And we are back to the bible's very existence, as being PROOF that there cannot POSSIBLY be any god or gods who give a rat's patute about humanity.

Just by existing? And just by being so full of evil-- be it literal OR figurative?

Is all the proof anyone who is purely logical, needs: Gods are either indifferent or myth.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So? Wearing blended fabrics was also a way of life in that culture...

But the bible-god felt secure enough to forbid it!

Eating shellfish? Eating pork? Was so very much a way of life in that time and place-- pigs were literally one of the first food animals to be domesticated, even!

But bible-god felt secure enough to forbid those things too...

But bible-god was too afraid to forbid the OWNING OF PEOPLE?

Moral Bankruptcy, Right There!
You do understand that none of this is “what God said,” right? This is cultural more, dictated and written by people. Do you know the reasons why these laws were set out in the first place? this isn’t “God being immoral.” This is “people being human and making power plays.” If you don’t understand that aspect of the texts, then please try something a little simpler than tearing down something you don’t understand — like converting oxygen, for instance.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And we are back to the bible's very existence, as being PROOF that there cannot POSSIBLY be any god or gods who give a rat's patute about humanity.

Just by existing? And just by being so full of evil-- be it literal OR figurative?

Is all the proof anyone who is purely logical, needs: Gods are either indifferent or myth.
Well, any representation we have for “God” is myth, by definition. “Indifferent” depends on perspective.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And if you don't "love him back"? HE WILL BRUTALLY TORTURE YOU FOREVER, AND EVER, AND EVER, AND EVER, in a CUSTOM TORTURE-PIT CREATED ESPECIALLY FOR YOU.

Nice. (no, it's not-- that last word was sarcasm)
I don’t believe that for a second. That’s not biblical. It might be a widely-held misapprehension of the texts, but it certainly isn’t the intended meaning.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sure it does. Go against the will of gravity and one can find one's self in a life long experience of pain and suffering or of the results of identifying whether or not there is an afterlife.
If you go against gravity, “lifelong” takes on a whole different meaning. Just sayin’...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What is murder? Is it not the unjustified or unlawful taking of life?.

Yep: Modern secular societies are infinitely MORE MORAL than the bible's god-- who commits murder for the silliest and most mundane of trivial things....

Proving modern secularism is more moral than your god.

What if it is lawful and completely justified?.

What if it isn't? How is it "justified" to kill all the kittens and puppies?

God removed one generation of Man so that there could be future generations of Man...
Including all the innocent babies.... Including all the unborn in pregnant women who were drowned....

YOU MUST BE A-OKAY WITH ABORTIONS, THEN-- BECAUSE YOU THINK UNBORN BABIES ARE NOT INNOCENT, AND ARE DESERVING OF DEATH.



God removed the wicked to save the righteous..

Except? God failed to even do THAT much! Noah? Was a drunken reprobate, who commits incest! Twice!

"righteous" my backside!

If any innocents were removed during the Flood, they returned to God and are well.

Oh. My. That's beyond sick. You just said they were NOT INNOCENT-- otherwise THERE COULD BE NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THEIR BRUTAL MURDERS!

Now you are going BACK on that, and claiming it's okay, because they WERE NOT GUILTY?

WHICH IS IT!
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Are you somehow not acknowledging that the god
in the bible is portrayed as a psycho monster?

Or are you?

I fully acknowledge that God is portrayed in the Bible (and in other works) as a destructive demonic force which is willing to kill innocent children, non-combatants and the like. But I also recognize that God is co-created by the humanity which perceives It/He/She and as such must be held accountable for the evil that God does through It's/His/Her creation. We cannot judge whether God is Good or not, we can only hope, believe or guess. We cannot prove God even exists. But we can choose to act in such a way AS IF God is Good and that our own inner inclination to be good can be accomplished in spite of the world we are left with.

Now why there should be such a disparity between what God supposedly wants from us and what God models for us...or what God is represented as having done in the Bible which appears on its face to be evil...that is a mystery that Job tries to answer, but probably doesn't to the satisfaction of many. In the end, just as God itself is beyond existential proof, his goodness is as well. I, for one, feel like I would like to act as if doing things in a way that seems just is worth a hell of a lot of suffering.
 
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