Fully human, yet without sin?

As I understand it, within Christianity, it is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness

As far as I can see, all of the above doesn’t add up, something’s not right

Unless we say he’s super-human, I suppose?

I don’t know…

Eddi said:

As I understand it, within Christianity, is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness

As far as I can see, all of the above doesn’t add up, something’s not right

Unless we say he’s super-human, I suppose?

I don’t know…

Click to expand...

Even the gospel accounts of that chap don't give the impression he was perfect, he was just a human like the rest of us, no sort of deity.

Eddi said:

As I understand it, within Christianity, it is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness

As far as I can see, all of the above doesn’t add up, something’s not right

Unless we say he’s super-human, I suppose?

I don’t know…

Click to expand...

Sin means ignorance, without ignorance of true God, not demiurge but One True God.

I'd explore the topic with you and share my thoughts on the matter, but not here in the freeway. Consider moving this thread to the Christian DIR, ... or perhaps I will start the topic anew, there, later.

Eddi said:

As I understand it, within Christianity, it is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness

As far as I can see, all of the above doesn’t add up, something’s not right

Unless we say he’s super-human, I suppose?

I don’t know…

Click to expand...

That is Billy Graham's preaching of Christianity, yes. That is not necessarily accurate. Its popular. The main popularity of it extends from alter call churches which offer salvation at the end of each church service, often playing music such as "Just as I am without one plea but that thy blood was shed for me." It doesn't amount to a defensible and consistent system of doctrines, no. Its not where you'd want to start if you wanted to understand the origin, nature and foundations of Christianity. Its more like a cartoon version.

Consider this that people understand innately that we each must have some personal responsibility. Personal responsibility just makes sense emotionally, physically and mentally. The semantics for that might change. For example you may say that you believe that you were a sinner until you confessed Jesus, but you will still feel the need to do right. You'll want other people to treat you right. Its simply built in. We all know we can't just do whatever. Therefore when we wrong others we need them to forgive us, regardless of what Jesus death does. This is an insurmountable fact of human life. I need your forgiveness, and you need mine. Thus it is that Jesus can say "If you forgive others then they are forgiven." Thus blood has little to do with it. In the NT writings blood is related to a different, lower level of atonement. You have to drink the blood and eat the body (wine and bread) regularly, which is to say that you must forgive; or the blood and the body have no power. They are powerless without your actions. Their power is in you, in your power to forgive and to be forgiven.

Terry Sampson said:

I'd explore the topic with you and share my thoughts on the matter, but not here in the freeway. Consider moving this thread to the Christian DIR, ... or perhaps I will start the topic anew, there, later.

Click to expand...

I think it is beyond my powers to move threads

But it would be cool if you were to bring up the topic in the Christian DIR later on

Eddi said:

As I understand it, within Christianity, it is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness

As far as I can see, all of the above doesn’t add up, something’s not right

Unless we say he’s super-human, I suppose?

I don’t know…

Click to expand...

He was supposed to be the New Adam where Mary is supposed to be the New Eve. They were supposed to be a "do-over" to correct Adam and Eve's failures and provide the sacred archetype for humans and redeem our nature. So, yes. They are viewed as sinless because they were working with God to resacralize human nature.

Terry Sampson said:

I'd explore the topic with you and share my thoughts on the matter, but not here in the freeway. Consider moving this thread to the Christian DIR, ... or perhaps I will start the topic anew, there, later.

Click to expand...

Some of us non-Christians can give better answers than the Christians, especially the fundies, on here. So, no. It shouldn't be moved. Not all of us are foaming at the mouth anti-Christians who post nonsense about it.

Eddi said:

But it would be cool if you were to bring up the topic in the Christian DIR later on

Click to expand...

Better yet, ... I'll meet you in the One-on-One debate/discussion sub-forum, under "General Debates" which is under "Everything but the Kitchen Sink".

Eddi said:

As I understand it, within Christianity, it is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness

As far as I can see, all of the above doesn’t add up, something’s not right

Unless we say he’s super-human, I suppose?

I don’t know…

Click to expand...

Either Jesus is not without sin, or He does not follow His own teachings. And provably so, assuming the stories of the Gospels are true.

Ciao

- viole

Terry Sampson said:

Better yet, ... I'll meet you in the One-on-One debate/discussion sub-forum, under "General Debates" which is under "Everything but the Kitchen Sink".

Click to expand...

OK, see you there then!

Eddi said:

As I understand it, within Christianity, it is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness

As far as I can see, all of the above doesn’t add up, something’s not right

Unless we say he’s super-human, I suppose?

I don’t know…

Click to expand...

Not really. Don't forget that Man is said to be made in the image of God and that it was only Original Sin (a predisposition towards doing wrong, inherited from earliest man) that caused Man to be sinful. The positive message therefore is that we all have it within us in principle to be sinless, even though in practice none of us can manage it. So Christ would have been fully human but, being also God, not suffering from Original Sin.

Or at least that is my amateur understanding of how it is supposed to work.

Eddi said:

As I understand it, within Christianity, it is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness
…

Click to expand...

I think it would help to look what Bible actually says.

Bible tells Jesus is a man and image of God. Bible tells also that God dwells in Jesus, similarly as in disciples of Jesus. Jesus is also born of God as many who received him can be.

Who is Jesus?

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

I have understood sin means person rejects or lives apart from God. And in the beginning people were expelled to this first death. Here we are born apart from God and so in sin. But Jesus was not born the same way. Jesus was born by Holy Spirit, which is why he was not born in sinful state.

The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:35

Because of the way Jesus was born, he didn’t have sin when he was born. And by what I know he was loyal/faithful to God and so didn’t sin after he was born.

Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for, "The righteous will live by faith."
Galatians 3:11

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

1213 said:

I think it would help to look what Bible actually says.

Bible tells Jesus is a man and image of God. Bible tells also that God dwells in Jesus, similarly as in disciples of Jesus. Jesus is also born of God as many who received him can be.

Who is Jesus?

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

I have understood sin means person rejects or lives apart from God. And in the beginning people were expelled to this first death. Here we are born apart from God and so in sin. But Jesus was not born the same way. Jesus was born by Holy Spirit, which is why he was not born in sinful state.

The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:35

Because of the way Jesus was born, he didn’t have sin when he was born. And by what I know he was loyal/faithful to God and so didn’t sin after he was born.

Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for, "The righteous will live by faith."
Galatians 3:11

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

Click to expand...

This interpretation strikes me as unpleasant, superstitious and wrong. The insinuation is that the act of sex is inherently sinful and that Jesus did not carry original sin because he was not conceived through human sexual intercourse. That is, in my submission, baloney. Christian theology does not, so far as I know, suggest in any way that the sexual act between married people is intrinsically sinful, nor that original sin is transmitted because of the sex act. That would be an appalling and ridiculous belief to hold.

The letter of St John is drawing a distinction between the "children of God" and the "children of the devil", not between Christ and the rest of humankind.

exchemist said:

This interpretation strikes me as unpleasant, superstitious and wrong. The insinuation is that the act of sex is inherently sinful and that Jesus did not carry original sin because he was not conceived through human sexual intercourse. ....

Click to expand...

I think you are giving unnecessary load for the word “sinful”. I think sin only means that one is in separation from God, or rejects God. If something is done without God, it can be called done in sinful state. It does not mean that normal sex would be bad or wrong. According to the Bible the difference between Jesus and other humans is just that Jesus was born by God’s influence. That is what makes him different.

1213 said:

I think you are giving unnecessary load for the word “sinful”. I think sin only means that one is in separation from God, or rejects God. If something is done without God, it can be called done in sinful state. It does not mean that normal sex would be bad or wrong. According to the Bible the difference between Jesus and other humans is just that Jesus was born by God’s influence. That is what makes him different.

Click to expand...

I'm fine with that. What I am not fine with is the idea that original sin is in some way connected to the sexual act. So long as you are not suggesting that, I am happy.

Eddi said:

As I understand it, within Christianity, it is said that Jesus Christ is fully human (as well as fully God)

Yet it is also said that he is perfect and without sin…

Yet it is also said that all humans are sinners

Indeed it is said we are all born in a state of sinfulness

As far as I can see, all of the above doesn’t add up, something’s not right

Unless we say he’s super-human, I suppose?

I don’t know…

Click to expand...

The original sin was counteracted by his godly nature. But still, Jesus was baptized.

syo said:

The original sin was counteracted by his godly nature. But still, Jesus was baptized.

Click to expand...

That kind of makes sense to me...

But isn't that just another way of saying that his Godly nature cancelled out his human nature, therefore making him less than fully human, i.e. more Godly than human?

Eddi said:

That kind of makes sense to me...

But isn't that just another way of saying that his Godly nature cancelled out his human nature, therefore making him less than fully human, i.e. more Godly than human?

Click to expand...

It didn't cancel the human nature. His human nature was the best form a human nature could be. He had temptations (because of original sin), he was mortal (because of original sin), but he wasn't evil (original sin could have mean he was evil too, but he wasn't evil. He had the best human nature). At least that's what I understood.

Jesus was far from perfect.