• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Can God be proven to exist?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
To your other response about the evidence, I agree a god is a pretty extraordinary claim. But what would suffice as evidence to that claim?
Certainly not a "Damascus road experience;" something like that would be as consistent - or more consistent - with mental illness as it would be with it being the product of an actual god.

I think that if God actually existed the way he's described by, say, mainstream Christianity or Islam, the evidence for God would be a lot like the evidence for the moon:

- it's observable on a regular basis.
- we have intersubjective verification in our observations: any time I'm looking at the moon, I can ask you to look to and we'll agree "yes, that's the moon."
- it has frequent measurable, observable effects.
- those effects correlate with the behaviour of the moon and nothing else.

So that would be my starting point.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Bear in mind that "proof" is a setting a higher standard than we demand for the theories of science.

So a more reasonable question, in my view, would be whether there is any objective evidence for God's existence. I would have to answer "no".

It seems to me that the religious person believes in God for subjective reasons, to do with personal spiritual experience, aesthetics, upbringing, and so on.

Thus, your case is that there can not be any evidence to a God?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Certainly not a "Damascus road experience;" something like that would be as consistent - or more consistent - with mental illness as it would be with it being the product of an actual god.

I think that if God actually existed the way he's described by, say, mainstream Christianity or Islam, the evidence for God would be a lot like the evidence for the moon:

- it's observable on a regular basis.
- we have intersubjective verification in our observations: any time I'm looking at the moon, I can ask you to look to and we'll agree "yes, that's the moon."
- it has frequent measurable, observable effects.
- those effects correlate with the behaviour of the moon and nothing else.

So that would be my starting point.

Even more consistent with a doggone lie.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Certainly not a "Damascus road experience;" something like that would be as consistent - or more consistent - with mental illness as it would be with it being the product of an actual god.

I think that if God actually existed the way he's described by, say, mainstream Christianity or Islam, the evidence for God would be a lot like the evidence for the moon:

- it's observable on a regular basis.
- we have intersubjective verification in our observations: any time I'm looking at the moon, I can ask you to look to and we'll agree "yes, that's the moon."
- it has frequent measurable, observable effects.
- those effects correlate with the behaviour of the moon and nothing else.

So that would be my starting point.

Hmm. Alright.

Have you considered other concepts of God? For example the Immanent God.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
what would you accept as evidence?
My Current understanding of the Source, is that it is a mathematical processor sustaining our realities structure at a quantum level.

Thus I'd expect evidence that is mathematical, that shows sequencing in our reality; such as the Fibonacci sequence being interwoven into all of reality (finger print, snail shell, ocean wave, galaxy spiral), showing a ultimate Source to it all.
what is the concept of God you have in your mind?
Having seen the Source in my NDE, God appeared in Heaven to me as the most beautiful person on a throne, yet these were my expectations; ultimately it is the Source of our reality...

Like a CPU manifesting a whole computer system, God is the processor quantifying the structuring that makes our reality possible.
as an Atheist, what would you think is evidence of a God to exist?
Atheism Vs Theism is a lack of understanding, neither of these are right in a mathematical reality, and people argue over the concepts in books describing quantum physics, before we have computers to justify the advanced concepts found in our reality.

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
My Current understanding of the Source, is that it is a mathematical processor sustaining our realities structure at a quantum level.

Thus I'd expect evidence that is mathematical, that shows sequencing in our reality; such as the Fibonacci sequence being interwoven into all of reality (finger print, snail shell, ocean wave, galaxy spiral), showing a ultimate Source to it all.

Having seen the Source in my NDE, God appeared in Heaven to me as the most beautiful person on a throne, yet these were my expectations; ultimately it is the Source of our reality...

Like a CPU manifesting a whole computer system, God is the processor quantifying the structuring that makes our reality possible.

Atheism Vs Theism is a lack of understanding, neither of these are right in a mathematical reality, and people argue over the concepts in books describing quantum physics, before we have computers to justify the advanced concepts found in our reality.

In my opinion.
:innocent:

Well, I would respond to that by saying "Oh my God".
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Hmm. Alright.

Have you considered other concepts of God? For example the Immanent God.

The doctrine or theory of immanence holds that the divine encompasses or is manifested in the material world. It is held by some philosophical and metaphysical theories of divine presence. ... subsuming immanent personal gods in a greater transcendent being (such as with Brahman in Hinduism), or.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Maybe this may not come as a high level discussion, but I just wish to know some views on "Can God be proven to exist". I am a theist, and I do personally believe that this proving God exists thing can never be done. I also believe that various people have varying concepts of God and most of us judge by our personal standards.

  1. But as an Atheist, what would you think is evidence of a God to exist?
  2. Also, as a theist, what would you accept as evidence?
  3. And if you have the patience to write a little more, what is the concept of God you have in your mind?
Thank you in advance.

What do you make of the cosmological, teleological, and ontological arguments?


Then there is the Moral Argument? That argument implies that objective moral values exist. If they do exist, which I think they do, then there must be a law giver. Therefore God exists.

I think all proofs fall short of a God existing because nature creates life in an awry fashion. Nature shows no indication of God like qualities. Most of the universe is inhospitable to life.

I do like the moral argument, and the teleological argument as proof of something but not God.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Well, I would respond to that by saying "Oh my God".
How is blasphemy on a religious forum in front of a huge audience justifiable?

Calling on any of the names of God, other than in the most blessed of occasions is blasphemy.

Using it as an expletive, as you don't understand the topic, is just barbaric in a conversation about God. :eek:

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What do you make of the cosmological, teleological, and ontological arguments?


Then there is the Moral Argument? That argument implies that objective moral values exist. If they do exist, which I think they do, then there must be a law giver. Therefore God exists.

I think all proofs fall short of a God existing because nature creates life in an awry fashion. Nature shows no indication of God like qualities. Most of the universe is inhospitable to life.

I do like the moral argument, and the teleological argument as proof of something but not God.

Brother, these are arguments, which I don't consider as evidence. Very interesting subjects, though im no expert, I dont consider them as evidence. I hope you understand.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
How is blasphemy on a religious forum in front of a huge audience justifiable?

Calling on any of the names of God, other than in the most blessed of occasions is blasphemy.

Using it as an expletive, as you don't understand the topic, is just barbaric in a conversation about God. :eek:

In my opinion.
:innocent:

Of course. I believe that you could always report my comment to the admins as blasphemy, and you are a person who speaks to God so im sure you could do something to teach me a lesson and/or change the way I speak.

In my opinion.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Maybe this may not come as a high level discussion, but I just wish to know some views on "Can God be proven to exist". I am a theist, and I do personally believe that this proving God exists thing can never be done. I also believe that various people have varying concepts of God and most of us judge by our personal standards.

  1. But as an Atheist, what would you think is evidence of a God to exist?
  2. Also, as a theist, what would you accept as evidence?
  3. And if you have the patience to write a little more, what is the concept of God you have in your mind?
Thank you in advance.
It can only be done through the Holy Spirit of God.

Trying to prove God without the Holy Spirit would be like trying to prove the existence of atoms without the use of any type of microscope.

We cannot prove anything without using the tools that allow us to perceive those things.

We need spiritual tools to both see and prove spiritual things.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It can only be done through the Holy Spirit of God.

Trying to prove God without the Holy Spirit would be like trying to prove the existence of atoms without the use of any type of microscope.

We cannot prove anything without using the tools that allow us to perceive those things.

We need spiritual tools to both see and prove spiritual things.

Thus, what would be the evidence that can provided through the Holy Spirit?
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Thus, what would be the evidence that can provided through the Holy Spirit?
The confirming witness of the Holy Spirit can be manifested in many ways.

It could be as simple and personal as the "still small voice" that pierces someone to their center or it could be manifested like on the Day of Pentecost described in Acts 2 as a "rushing mighty wind" and people speaking with "cloven tongues like as of fire".

It depends on the individual's level of faith and understanding as well as on the will of God.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Maybe this may not come as a high level discussion, but I just wish to know some views on "Can God be proven to exist". ...

I think before evidence one should know God, who or what He is. If you don’t know God, you wouldn’t see Him, even if He would be right in front of you. This is why I think it is important to first know that Bible tells God is spirit and love.

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

After that you could perhaps find evidence.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
you are a person who speaks to God so im sure you could do something to teach me a lesson and/or change the way I speak.
Asking for violence, rather than recognize fault is even more barbaric... :eek:

The Source of our reality records all deeds, and actions, there is no need to report it; you've already sealed your own chances by your own declarations.

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Personally if I blaspheme slightly by accident, as we're in a world full of haters, I'll generally grovel to God very humbly until balance is restored...

Whereas you're like "bring it on, send the power of God against me!!"; thought you said you're were a theist?

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Hmm. Alright.

Have you considered other concepts of God? For example the Immanent God.
Immanent and pantheistic gods always struck me as excuse-making: they seem to be for people who recognize that belief in God isn't well-founded but want to believe in God anyhow.

But how would "the immanent God" be distinguished from no God at all? What implications are there in saying that God permeates the universe? How would a universe with an immanent god look different from one with no gods?
 
Top