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Empirical Evidence and Arguments for God(s)

TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
1137 said:
Actually logic is needed to interpret anything.
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But logic alone is not going to provide you with any answers. Nore does one require classes in "philosophy" to learn logic and logical thinking.

In fact....
Take a physicists who never had a single philosophy class and a philosopher with 27 phd's in philosophy.
Ask both a question about the universe. The physicist will do his science thing: gather data, form hypothesis, test hypothesis, repeat. The philosopher will sit there and "think about it".

I think we both know who will come up with the correct answer, if any of them do.
And it's not the philosopher.


Really shows the depth of your understanding.
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My understanding is fine, thanks.

For the tenth time, read the Kastrup one then.
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So you don't wish to zoom in on a single scientific reference, summarize it and explain how it supports dualism. Fine.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
Is it really that difficult to recognize the difference between matter and the idea of matter? I find that difficult to believe.
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Apparently so as I am not sure what you mean here.

Are you saying that consciousness is the idea of matter?

Is an idea a thing that is not matter? Or is it an energic pattern or configuration of matter that in and of itself impacts other such matter organizations?
 
sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
But logic alone is not going to provide you with any answers. Nore does one require classes in "philosophy" to learn logic and logical thinking.

In fact....
Take a physicists who never had a single philosophy class and a philosopher with 27 phd's in philosophy.
Ask both a question about the universe. The physicist will do his science thing: gather data, form hypothesis, test hypothesis, repeat. The philosopher will sit there and "think about it".

I think we both know who will come up with the correct answer, if any of them do.
And it's not the philosopher.




My understanding is fine, thanks.



So you don't wish to zoom in on a single scientific reference, summarize it and explain how it supports dualism. Fine.
Click to expand...

A good philosopher, like Daniel Dennett, will have one or more of those PhD's in a scientific discipline.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
sealchan said:
Apparently so as I am not sure what you mean here.

Are you saying that consciousness is the idea of matter?

Is an idea a thing that is not matter? Or is it an energic pattern or configuration of matter that in and of itself impacts other such matter organizations?
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"Matter" is a conceptual phenomenon resulting from a human consciousness experiencing actual phenomena. Every 'thing' is a conceptual phenomenon resulting from our cognitive experience of actual phenomena.
 
sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
"Matter" is a conceptual phenomenon resulting from a human consciousness experiencing actual phenomena. Every 'thing' is a conceptual phenomenon resulting from our cognitive experience of actual phenomena.
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Sure...is a concept, a 'thing', matter or consciousness?

What I am getting at is that I understand that consciousness is understood by many to be distinct from matter. The incorporeal quality of our own mental experience inspires us to create a dichotomy between physical and spiritual, matter and soul. My thing is that everything we know and understand has both the quality of objectivity and subjectivity, of matter and of awareness, of idea and actual phenomenon simultaneously and inseparably. Human language cannot fully differentiate what human cognition cannot separate.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
sealchan said:
Sure...is a concept, a 'thing', matter or consciousness?
Click to expand...
It's ALL phenomena.
sealchan said:
What I am getting at is that I understand that consciousness is understood by many to be distinct from matter. The incorporeal quality of our own mental experience inspires us to create a dichotomy between physical and spiritual, matter and soul. My thing is that everything we know and understand has both the quality of objectivity and subjectivity, of matter and of awareness, of idea and actual phenomenon simultaneously and inseparably. Human language cannot fully differentiate what human cognition cannot separate.
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I agree. Nevertheless, the awareness of 'what is' is a transcendent manifestation of the 'what is'. It generates and embodies a whole new realm of possibility that did not and could not exist, otherwise. To be aware, and to be aware of being aware, are not just manifestations of matter and energy, they are transcendent manifestation of matter and energy.
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
PureX said:
To be aware, and to be aware of being aware, are not just manifestations of matter and energy, they are transcendent manifestation of matter and energy.
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What's the actual and practical difference between a manifestation of matter and energy on the one hand, and a "tanscendent" manifestation thereof on the other?
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
What's the actual and practical difference between a manifestation of matter and energy on the one hand, and a "tanscendent" manifestation thereof on the other?
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A transcendent manifestation of matter and energy generates a whole realm of new possibilities that did not previously exist. With the manifestation of consciousness, for example, comes the possibility of value, desire, choice, and planning, and with those; competition, cooperation, and so on. A whole realm of possibilities that did not previously exist.
 
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sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
A transcendent manifestation of matter and energy generates a whole realm of new possibilities that did not previously exist. With the manifestation of consciousness, for example, comes the possibility of value, desire, choice, and planning, and with those; competition, cooperation, and so on. A whole realm of possibilities that did not previously exist.
Click to expand...

I think that in complex, adaptive systems it can be claimed that there are various transcendent levels of physical reality underlying consciousness. With the quantum underlying the atomic, the atomic underlying the molecular, the molecular underlying the organic, the organic underlying the "organismic", the organism underlying the linguistic...we can see the miraculous emergence of higher order systems built on lower order ones without a clear sense that the properties of the emergent system derive from the underlying system.

Consciousness has more in common with physical systems than it has that is unique. Arguably, its a hierarchy of transcendent systems of matter all the way down.

Perhaps our sense of mystery about consciousness is a symptom of our psychological sphexishness.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
sealchan said:
I think that in complex, adaptive systems it can be claimed that there are various transcendent levels of physical reality underlying consciousness. With the quantum underlying the atomic, the atomic underlying the molecular, the molecular underlying the organic, the organic underlying the "organismic", the organism underlying the linguistic...we can see the miraculous emergence of higher order systems built on lower order ones without a clear sense that the properties of the emergent system derive from the underlying system.

Consciousness has more in common with physical systems than it has that is unique. Arguably, its a hierarchy of transcendent systems of matter all the way down.

Perhaps our sense of mystery about consciousness is a symptom of our psychological sphexishness.
Click to expand...
I agree that existence regularly exhibits transcendence; energy to matter, matter to life, life to consciousness ... and these are just the ones we are aware of. What manifested that energy? What manifested the limitations within the energy that then manifested as matter, space-time, motion, and so one? And where does it 'end'? Is consciousness also manifesting some new realm of possibilities that we, as manifestations of consciousness, are not able to experience?
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
PureX said:
A transcendent manifestation of matter and energy generates a whole realm of new possibilities that did not previously exist. With the manifestation of consciousness, for example, comes the possibility of value, desire, choice, and planning, and with those; competition, cooperation, and so on. A whole realm of possibilities that did not previously exist.
Click to expand...

Sounds pretty subjective to me.
To me, you're simply listing properties of physical brains capable of producing awareness.
Still not sure what the real practical difference is between "transcendend manifestation of matter" and "normal" manifestation of matter.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
Sounds pretty subjective to me.
To me, you're simply listing properties of physical brains capable of producing awareness.
Still not sure what the real practical difference is between "transcendend manifestation of matter" and "normal" manifestation of matter.
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Matter does not value anything. It does not desire anything. It does not mean anything. These possibilities do not exist in the material realm of existence.
 
sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
I agree that existence regularly exhibits transcendence; energy to matter, matter to life, life to consciousness ... and these are just the ones we are aware of. What manifested that energy? What manifested the limitations within the energy that then manifested as matter, space-time, motion, and so one? And where does it 'end'? Is consciousness also manifesting some new realm of possibilities that we, as manifestations of consciousness, are not able to experience?
Click to expand...

Yes virtual reality...where all the miracles and the supernatural may one day take literal form.

I once remarked in group discussion setting how one day the reality of our virtual reality, a sensory extension of the noosphere, will become so integrated into our lives that one might pause to measure the size of that virtual space and find the physical reality to be smaller. This will be more likely if faster than light travel never becomes a thing.
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
PureX said:
Only because you manifest consciousness
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Which is produced by my material brain. It IS my material brain.
I can put my head in an MRI scanner and start composing a tune and my very material brain will light up in the creative regions. Because my consciousness is literally the material neural activity that goes on inside my material brain.

It's not your matter that is producing these possibilities.
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It is.

It's your consciousness.
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No, my consciousness is not some seperate entity that exists distinct from my brain.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
Which is produced by my material brain. It IS my material brain.
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So what? Everything is a "product of" everything else. And is ultimately a product of the great mystery we call "God". This has nothing to do with the fact that life, and then consciousness transcends the matter from which it springs.
Audie said:
I can put my head in an MRI scanner and start composing a tune and my very material brain will light up in the creative regions. Because my consciousness is literally the material neural activity that goes on inside my material brain.
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Again, this has no bearing on the fact that the tune is a conceptual (metaphysical) phenomena being generated in the human brain.

You seem to be adhering to the false idea that transcendence infers complete separation from it's source, and I see no logical reason that we should assume so, especially when to assume this to be so effectively negates the possibility of transcendence, absolutely. It would render the term abjectly meaningless.
Audie said:
No, my consciousness is not some seperate entity that exists distinct from my brain.
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The fact that you can consciously conceptualize your brain as an independent phenomenon, as you just have, stands as pretty good evidence to the contrary.
 
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