LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Jesus said that their father, the devil, was a murderer from the beginning. Who did the devil murder?
Was it Adam? If so, how?
Was it Abel? If so, how?
Was it Adam? If so, how?
Was it Abel? If so, how?
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He was a murderer from the beginning.
- Thread starter LightofTruth
- Start date
sooda
Veteran Member
I think its allegory about hunter gathers transitioning to agriculture and no longer depending on God's providence.. But it could mean anything.
In the original Eden story it was a garden for the Gods.
Translate the verse more fully, and it says their father, the slanderer, was a murderer from the beginning. Then it becomes clear he is protesting what they have said about him, and his words foreshadow his crucifixion.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I think you meant ...Cain
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Generally, he seeks "whom he may devour".
In Eden, he lied and convinced Eve to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil -which would lead to death.
The psychology is basically that he attempted a coup to overthrow God -it was put down -now he is wrathful against man -who will eventually judge the affairs of angels.... so he goes where he can do the most damage.
Best to focus on your own salvation, though....
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
leov
Well-Known Member
Evil and/or ignorant human mind.
Jesus also called the Devil, in that same verse - John 8:44 - "the father of the lie". Why? Because he told the first one, when he told Eve, "You positively will not die."
They died.
And because Eve believed him, death came to mankind. Hence, he's a manslayer.
They died.
And because Eve believed him, death came to mankind. Hence, he's a manslayer.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
At the beginning, no one. But he was still a murderer. That was his nature. Because he was that, that would eventually be what he would do.
Many like to claim David was a murderer because he murdered Uriah. But he wasn't. He committed the sin of murder, but he was not a murderer. He was by nature, a man after God's own heart.
Good-Ole-Rebel
sooda
Veteran Member
The reason David was not allowed to build the temple was because he had blood on his hands.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
You mean that wasn't an allegory, like everything else in your bible?
I didn't say David was not guilty. I said he was not a murderer. Just like God would not let him 'build' the temple, so did God also say David was a man after my own heart. Or is that just an allegory also.
Good-Ole-Rebel
sooda
Veteran Member
Who knows if there ever was a David or a United KIngdom. I just told you what the Bible said.
KJV
1 Chronicles 17:4 "Go and tell My servant David that this is what the LORD says: You are not the one to build a house for Me to dwell in. 1 Chronicles 22:8
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure the bible references that Lucifer wasn't evil at first, but satan was.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know what the Bible says. But, it doesn't mean anything to you. Why even Jesus was probably an allegory. Good stories to show us how to be better people. How empty.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
There was a time when Lucifer had not yet fallen. He had not yet committed any outward act of rebellion against God. In that sense he was not outwardly guilty. (Ezekiel 28:14-15) Yet Jesus said he was a murderer from the beginning.
I would say Lucifer was always evil, because he was a murderer from the beginning, though it didn't come to light till his rebellion. Even when he was the 'anointed cherub that covereth', in the very presence of God, he was a murderer. (Ezekiel 28:14)
And interestingly enough, 'murder' was not his original sin. It was his desire to be as God. (Is. 14:12-17) Yet Jesus said he was a murderer from the beginning.
Good-Ole-Rebel
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
James says that everyone is tempted when they are drawn away and enticed by their own lust, and that lust gives birth to transgression, and transgression leads to death.
Therefore, the serpent merely prompted the lust in Eve. Something that was already in her. So, the lust of the flesh and the devil are they same thing.
The text says that Eve saw that the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye and desired to make one wise, so she took of the fruit and gave to Adam. When Adam ate he was in transgression of the law of God. And Adam's transgression has brought death to pass to all men.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Eve knew the fruit was forbidden, she even said so. When Eve accepted the lie of the serpent over what she knew God had said, then Eve made the lie her own and seeing that the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye, and desired to make one wise, she took it and gave to Adam.
So, what was it that could make Eve accept a lie rather than obey God? It was the sin in her flesh! And the wages of sin is death. So sin in the flesh and the devil are the same thing. Because, first comes lust then comes sin and sin brings death.
If I follow 1 Timothy and combine it with Romans 7...on one point I disagree with your quoted post above about it being a complete lie, because her eyes are opened just as the serpent has informed her. The lie is that she will still live forever. She then knows good from evil as the gods, but this causes her nature to assert itself against the law, sealing her fate. Perhaps at this point she doesn't know the cost, but Adam does know that cost will be death. Even so he chooses knowledge, and he makes the right choice. The choice to eat the fruit is disobedience to 'The gods', but 'the gods' in Genesis do not always have the best intentions towards people. I suggest reconsidering the nature of the command not to eat the fruit. Its command we are meant to break. Just as prophets can lie, gods can scheme. Gods create the Nephelim by lusting after human women in Genesis. They are not ideal beings. It says they do, coming right on down from their heaven and screwing human women. They also fear the ascent of humans. Adam makes the right choice for a couple of reasons. First, he chooses to reject the religion of Egypt. In Egypt morality is in the hands of gods, not in the hands of men. Secondly he makes the right choice, because wisdom is better than ignorance.
As Christians we also reject Egyptian religion also, because we have consciences. We say God is above all political authority, that morality is above what kings say. We also assert that the brotherhood of Christ is above all, because we are the brotherhood of Jesus whose name is above all rule and authority, power and dominion; yet the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. We don't put ourselves forward as the rulers of the planet. It is not we personally but Christ who rules from heaven. Carnal weapons are weaker than our weapons, so we do not rely on them. Whatever became of the kings of the Earth? Where are they today? They are being subdued not through wars but through other means, because wars merely fluster them. This comes from the choice of choosing to know right from wrong, and it is better than the ignorance which the gods would put upon us.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Are you trying to say it was OK for Eve to eat it? If so, that is not what scripture says at all.
(Another subject are the "curses" which followed -which cause some to view women in a bad light, but were meant for eventual perfection -extreme pressures and forces necessary for an end result which all will appreciate later [the case with all of that which some call God's "cruelty"] -even as the "former things" are forgotten.)
Also... What she ate was not actually important. It was apparently good food -but she disobeyed God by eating it -hence the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -and hence her transgression (though in some innocent ignorance because she was new and inexperienced). What followed -all of human history from that time onward -is to essentially get all of this stupidity -both innocent ignorance and wilful disobedience -out of the way first. What happened in Eden -God purposefully allowing Adam and Eve to be directly/indirectly influenced by Satan -was a purposeful focus on these subjects.
The tree of life is ONLY GOOD.
We are all being made "wise" by experiencing evil -but will later only eat of the tree of life, because we will not want any of this ever again.
Satan was once new and ignorant, just as were Adam and Eve -and none of them know God from Adam (humor intended).
It is/was actually UNWISE to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -because it causes death and destruction of the creation.
We will BE WISE AFTERWARD. We will then "KNOW" both good and evil, but the deception was in the fact that you don't NEED direct experience -even if it was inevitable that we chose it.
It is possible to "do the math" -to not DO evil, but think it through -but that is not to say it would satisfy curiosity or remove doubt the way allowing us to choose and experience will do.
The point is to eradicate all doubt and temptation to do evil, so we can go out into the rest of the creation without making a miserable mess of it -and do we do not have to be micromanaged.
It is also so that we do not at all doubt who God is and what his intentions are toward us -and that we KNOW HIM.
"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Lust does not have to exist before being focused on a subject or action by another. One can be prompted to do something they were not otherwise even considering.
The lust of the flesh is of the carnal/animal part of us -and must be mastered as we put on immortality.
Satan is an actual being with personality and decision-making ability -and a LOT of knowledge, power and subtlety .
They are NOT the same thing.