Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Complaining about a very long lived problem is "over focusing?"
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Another cop, another murder
- Thread starter Epic Beard Man
- Start date
I call it getting stuck in the past. The future is being hindered by an over-focusing on racial tension. Modern America is way better than these instigators want to portray it.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
We've made progress, but we really never even fully fixed or addressed many problems. Such as black people and the police. And it's not an over focus, because black people are killed by police way more often and frequently than white people. There's no real way to over focus on it unless you believe it is the sole problem facing police.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
I wasn´t responding to you, but to Nakosis.
What is your point ?
shmogie
Well-Known Member
In checking, it WAS you I was responding to. What is your post based upon ? Your interaction with Tucson cops ? DPS ? How many contacts ?
I don´t know about Arizona, though I know a number of Az. cops, who I have seen interact with citizens on ride alongs, and your observations are wrong.
I do know about Police Officers in California and how they are trained. I supervised 40 of them for 17 years. I know intimately what training they receive, I know the policies they operate under. I know how they are screened and evaluated.
Officers as you describe would not have survived in my Dept, or most likely in any other.
Let me give you an example of how it works. When I was a 21 year old rookie back in the day, I stopped a brand new speeding corvette. As I approached the drivers window, the driver, a young man, said ¨what the hell do you want΅. After the may I have your license, sir ? I was told how his family was rich, had great family contacts, and how I was a poor peon. I didn´t respond, but I did a very thorough, methodical, slow safety inspection of his Corvette ( was legal then).
The point ? He failed the attitude test, but there was no need for me to be an *** in return, I could legally make my concern known.
Cops in certain neighborhoods must always be asserting ¨Öfficers presence¨ but also be able to give respect, to receive it.
Arrogant, rude, bullies wash out in academy, field training, or shortly thereafter, they can only be an actor for so long.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
There is always a danger in a rush to judgement, I try not to do this till all the facts are in, however I did join the herd on this one.
The woman was found dead near a firearm, and her nephew confirms that she was pointing her pistol through the window in the direction of the police.
Yes, they did not announce themselves, and yes, they apparently made no effort to contact the resident.
The use of a firearm for home defense is usually limited to a suspect inside the home, you cannot shoot someone down in the yard. She no doubt was attempting to deter someone from entering her home, by pointing the gun.
If the Officer in question saw this, and I have been in that situation, what should he have done ?
Yes, the whole thing was tactically a clusterf**k on the part of the cops.
When a gun is pointed at you, and you believe your death could be imminent, what should you do if you are armed, and trained for this situation ?
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Of course peace officers have a duty to maintain their safety but his negligent behavior caused a loss of life because he did not do his due diligence to announce himself. The door was open and so with that being said why didn’t he go through the door and announce himself?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Why didn't he announce himself in the backyard either? Before any shooting a cop has to make it know that he is a cop. If you know me you would know that I am very pro-cop most of the time. This is a case where there is no doubt that the cop was in the wrong. A citizen might be able to say "it was an accident" and get off with a manslaughter charge, but a cop is not a regular citizen. Police have more power than regular citizens so they also have a higher responsibility. He failed and for him that failure amounts to murder.
That's the reason why they are train that way. Self preservation. The police doesn't know who has been trained to kill and who has not, so they have to assume any aggression may be a threat on their life.
So, their life is more precious than a possible innocent victim. I don't agree with that. Why are they not trained to disable? Why do they seem to always go for the kill?
To them, to their family, to their fellow workers on the police force, yes.
If you, your spouse or your child were on the police force you might think differently.
I don't know. Perhaps the idea that even someone who has been disabled is still a potential threat. A threat is a threat. Maybe they should be train on differentiating between lethal threats and non-lethal threats.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Excellent questions. Apparently they got it in their mind ( with little evidence) that there had been a burglary or home invasion because of the open door. They then it seems were trying to determine if there was a hostage situation or some such. Thatś is why they didn´t enter and were looking in windows to determine exactly what they had. If there was a hostage, you wouldn´t want to just charge in.
Looking at it now, I can say their imaginations got the better of them, and they over reacted.
However, I wasn´t on that call that night, I don´t know the neighborhood or the crime problems there, if any.
Tragic stuff like this happens. I remember a case in LA where a robbery occurred, and a suspect description went out. Immediately a patrol car said they had a subject matching the description running in a direction away from the scene of the robbery. They got him stopped, and ¨keep repeating keep your hands on top of your head, as the robber had been armed. Suddenly the subject dropped his right arm , and moved his hand behind his back. He was shot and killed, In the rear waist band is where many carry a gun.
He was not the robber, though he was dressed like him. He was a jogger, and a deaf mute. In his wallet was a paper he showed to people to explain why he couldn´t hear or talk.
The LAPD cops followed procedure exactly, yet an innocent was laying dead on the street. They were cleared of any charges. They resigned, and one committed suicide.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Split second decisions are a very heavy burden, and sometimes you are compelled to act without all the information you need.
Because of the racial issue, this guy will go to trial, determination by another agency whether it was a "good shoot¨ i.e. within policy, is irrelevant. The trial will tell us what
happened and why. If he is convicted of a crime by a jury of his peers, so be it, if he is not convicted, so be it.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Shooting to disable can be ineffective at times and can be a threat to surrounding people. One worry always when gunfire erupts is the possibility of striking innocent people. Main body mass is both the easiest to hit and will take away most of the bullets velocity. Also when real threats arise they are quite often drug fueled. A non-fatal wound will not do the trick. This is why it is imperative that police announce themselves. There is no doubt that this did not happen in this case.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Sigh, under stress marksmanship suffers. Disabled people can still kill. If there is a policy of winging someone, then the extreme seriousness of using a firearm is removed. When you unholster it, you are prepared by circumstances to take a life, anything less, you leave it holstered.
You shoot to neutralize a threat, period. At least two, but maybe more shots full body mass, you aren´t shooting like Hopalong Cassidy , shooting the gun out of some guys hand, very, very few can. Your life, or someone elses is on the line, and you take the biggest target and fire.
Mostly Tucson cops, although some Pima County, some DPS, some Border Patrol. I will say that I have not any real personal issues with cops in general. That is, I haven't had very many run-ins with the law. I am a peaceful, law-abiding citizen; I don't bother anybody, and nobody bothers me.
But there have been other times when I've had to deal with the police, mostly situations coming up where I've worked. I also befriended a Pima County Sheriff's deputy who moonlighted as a security guard where I worked; I knew his father, who was a top sergeant in TPD. I was a teenager at the time, and I was talking about how some acquaintances were out in the desert drinking beer (underage) and had some trouble with the cops.
They said that in situations like that, the best thing to do is to comply with the officer's authority, don't get cute and defiant, and it would probably turn out okay. But this was back in a time when society wasn't quite so strict about these things. But they emphasized that the main thing the officers are going to want to do is establish their authority. They have to do that; they don't have a choice in that. Even if they want to be nice guys and let it go, they can't do that. But once you show deference and submission to their authority, then they can be nice guys (well, sort of).
That doesn't mean that all cops are bad, but I think some might take this "you will respect my authority" a little bit too far. Such as the cop in question here in this thread. Here's a guy who's acting like he's in some kind of war zone, not in a suburban neighborhood where people live. How did he get this mentality? Where did it come from? Is it a product of his training as a police officer?
Yet, so many of them have apparently thrived in police departments all across the country for many decades. Now, granted, it's not the 1920s anymore - or even the 1950s. I realize there have been changes and reforms in curbing many of the abuses of the past. But in recent decades, there have been observations of increased militarization in police departments.
I remember a while back when they talked a lot about community policing and more reaching out to the people in the neighborhoods. They still do that, but there still seems to be a noticeable "us vs. them" mentality out there, as if the police and civilians are from completely different countries.
These incidents such as in the OP are horrible events which could have been and should have been avoided. Sure, the police chief and the mayor are upset and apologetic, as well they should be. The fired and disgraced police officer is facing murder charges and will have to answer for his crime. But I think we also should look at these situations from a larger vantage point and try to examine the root causes.
Well, I'll take your word for it that some of them may wash out in the academy, but there are some who still end up making the headlines.
Of course, the young corvette driver you mention probably was rich and likely used to getting his way. A product of our capitalist system which so many people love to extol and worship. If he had been a young black guy from the 'hood, would he be treated in the same courteous and respectful manner?
In terms of actually enforcing the law, many of these shootings seem to stem from misunderstandings or gross overreactions to minor infractions.
A lot of incidents seem to revolve around traffic stops going awry, which brings up another point that was raised in the Ferguson case. There was a growing resentment against police officers being used as "collection agents" for the local government, which was in a position where they had to depend on collecting fines for various infractions in order to raise revenue.
It's somewhat the same here. I've had occasion to go down to City Court where people are called up before the judge for various minor infractions and issued fines. You could almost hear the "cha-ching" sound going off every time a fine was issued. This idea that there's a need to enforce every picayune violation as a matter of life and death has got to stop.
Nobody has a problem with the police when they're dealing with real bad guys - the hardened criminals who are out there. That's why society has set up police departments in the first place - to keep order and capture the bad guys (alive, if possible, so they can still receive a fair trial). But these situations seem to arise when they think that ordinary citizens are "bad guys," and it's this kind of confusion which needs to be dealt with.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Tra
You spoke about young men from the hood, and if they are approached politely.
The answer is yes,but...........................................
Gangbangers see politeness in a cop as weakness. So, you are polite, and if they cop an attitude, laughing and pointing, you must communicate with them in the language they most understand.
Back in the day, I could talk street trash pretty well, though it changes continually so I am illiterate in it now.
So, in their language I would tell them what the deal was and what I expected and that I wouldn't disrespect them (a mortal sin) as long as they gave me respect. Usually it was cool.
When you say establish authority, I think you mean what we called Officer presence. A calm confident manner, coupled with looking professional, and projecting the fact that you are now in charge of whatever you were called to. No cockiness, no smart *** language, simply confidence, professionalism, and total assurance that you know what you are doing and you should be in charge.
Barney Fife didn´t have it, and some cops don´t, to reassure themselves they act out improperly. enough complaints, and an IA review will solve the problem, one way or another.
Traffic stops are where Officers are killed most often. You never know what is going to happen, and you have to be hyper vigilant. People moving around in a car or getting out are serious warning signs, and it is tough to be super polite, when the adrenalin is flowing and you are trying to watch everything. It is a skill you learn.
You spoke about young men from the hood, and if they are approached politely.
The answer is yes,but...........................................
Gangbangers see politeness in a cop as weakness. So, you are polite, and if they cop an attitude, laughing and pointing, you must communicate with them in the language they most understand.
Back in the day, I could talk street trash pretty well, though it changes continually so I am illiterate in it now.
So, in their language I would tell them what the deal was and what I expected and that I wouldn't disrespect them (a mortal sin) as long as they gave me respect. Usually it was cool.
When you say establish authority, I think you mean what we called Officer presence. A calm confident manner, coupled with looking professional, and projecting the fact that you are now in charge of whatever you were called to. No cockiness, no smart *** language, simply confidence, professionalism, and total assurance that you know what you are doing and you should be in charge.
Barney Fife didn´t have it, and some cops don´t, to reassure themselves they act out improperly. enough complaints, and an IA review will solve the problem, one way or another.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Tra
You spoke about young men from the hood, and if they are approached politely.
The answer is yes,but...........................................
Gangbangers see politeness in a cop as weakness. So, you are polite, and if they cop an attitude, laughing and pointing, you must communicate with them in the language they most understand.
Back in the day, I could talk street trash pretty well, though it changes continually so I am illiterate in it now.
So, in their language I would tell them what the deal was and what I expected and that I wouldn't disrespect them (a mortal sin) as long as they gave me respect. Usually it was cool.
When you say establish authority, I think you mean what we called Officer presence. A calm confident manner, coupled with looking professional, and projecting the fact that you are now in charge of whatever you were called to. No cockiness, no smart *** language, simply confidence, professionalism, and total assurance that you know what you are doing and you should be in charge.
Barney Fife didn´t have it, and some cops don´t, to reassure themselves they act out improperly. enough complaints, and an IA review will solve the problem, one way or another.
Traffic stops are where Officers are killed most often. You never know what is going to happen, and you have to be hyper vigilant. People moving around in a car or getting out are serious warning signs, and it is tough to be super polite, when the adrenalin is flowing and you are trying to watch everything. It is a skill you learn.
You spoke about young men from the hood, and if they are approached politely.
The answer is yes,but...........................................
Gangbangers see politeness in a cop as weakness. So, you are polite, and if they cop an attitude, laughing and pointing, you must communicate with them in the language they most understand.
Back in the day, I could talk street trash pretty well, though it changes continually so I am illiterate in it now.
So, in their language I would tell them what the deal was and what I expected and that I wouldn't disrespect them (a mortal sin) as long as they gave me respect. Usually it was cool.
When you say establish authority, I think you mean what we called Officer presence. A calm confident manner, coupled with looking professional, and projecting the fact that you are now in charge of whatever you were called to. No cockiness, no smart *** language, simply confidence, professionalism, and total assurance that you know what you are doing and you should be in charge.
Barney Fife didn´t have it, and some cops don´t, to reassure themselves they act out improperly. enough complaints, and an IA review will solve the problem, one way or another.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Pointing a gun at someone and firing it is not hard. Most police engagements are within 7 yards, virtually anyone can hit a person at that distance.
So, the mind set is I die or they die, I don´t care about their training, their sex, or their age. The gun makes them a player for the highest stakes game possible.
They will have forced me to shoot to eliminate them as a threat, they more than likely will die. Or, they may kill me. My training is honed to as far as possible see that they die, and not me, or anyone else.
Aggression is not met with deadly force, unless a firearm is involved.
There is a progression, or escalation based upon whether you verbally cannot control the situation. In my day the baton was critical as a defense option, as was mace.
Today the Tazer is the big option.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
When a gun is involved, and itś holder won´t drop it or points it at you, it is always a lethal threat.
It is often use as a reason. They thought they saw a weapon.