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I could never blame an atheist for being an atheist

Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Part of the wisdom, of hiding the leader, is so we without judging each other differences, come back to the leader and guide and seek the day. It's so we say, all humans whether Atheist, Gay, Polytheists, etc, to not be judged, but all work together on what we agree, try to establish justice, seek the truth together and allow discussion to take place regarding the truth openly and without hate. The miracles talked about in the old books all have a purpose, and we have to prepare to accept these miracles as proofs when they will be presented to us, but till then, we are to forbear each other differences and disputes.

Disbelief is when miracles are present, it's in this context it was condemned. When the miracles are hidden, so is God's proof who is the one proven by them, and when he is hidden, so his guidance, and when guidance is hidden, don't judge people.

"O you who believe, if you travel in the earth, never say to anyone you are not a believer...."-Chapter 4 - Quran.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Trailblazer said:
I probably should not post this today because I won’t have much time to answer posts after today, till the weekend, unless the posts are short. But I had a heartfelt feeling and I just had to share it.

These ideas for threads often come to me after a day in the trenches reading what people post and then it reaches critical mass when I see Christians arguing about *what the Bible means.* One Christian believes it means x, another one believes it means y, and another one believes it means z. These beliefs are contradictory so any logical person would know that either only one is right and all the others are wrong or they are all wrong.

Of course it usually takes an atheist to parse this out because those believers who *want to believe* something will find a way to interpret the Bible so they can believe what they want to believe. The atheists are right that most belief is emotional, and this pertains more to Christians than to other believers because they are emotionally attached to Jesus. They are also attached to the belief that Jesus is going to return, after which time they will be resurrected and go to heaven or live forever on earth in a Garden of Eden, depending upon which belief they have. All this comes with a guarantee, because they were saved by the blood of Jesus. Who would want to give all that up unless they had a *reason* to give it up?

I cannot comment on other religions because I am not very familiar with them, but most Christians and Jews do not understand that they believe what they do mostly because of religious traditions they came to believe without question. Moreover, human behavior is driven more by emotion than by reason, so unless one makes a concerted effort to think rationally and overcome emotion that will not happen.

Most people do not understand the emotional component of belief because most people do not have an in depth understanding of psychology. I just happen to have a lot of education in psychology and wore that hat much longer than any religion hat. I became a Baha’i based upon logic and reason, not emotion. It just made sense to me. I have no emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah or God. I should love God more but given all the suffering I see in the world that is difficult.

How the hell could any atheist ever figure out which religion is true, or if any religion is true? Just look at all the religions on this forum, and look at all the different beliefs within the same religion. Then there are believers who have no religion at all. How can any atheist be expected to parse this all out? If I was an atheist, I would probably just forget the whole thing, but then I was never very interested in God anyhow.

I do not expect any atheist to figure out which religion is true unless they are really enthusiastic about believing in God, because it would be a near impossible feat. Of course, I think that God would guide them if they were sincere and made the effort, because that is what I believe. That does not mean they would end up believing in the true religion, but it sure would help.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

Now I want to post a passage that explains why people are so confused in this new age. Mind you, I do not fully understand what this passage means. For example I do not know why “This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation” or why “the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error.” Baha’u’llah’s Writings are often very deep and I am not very mystical, I am an analytical type of person.

“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32
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You’ve fallen into a classic trap: that of thinking that the Bible can only be interpreted in one correct way. In fact, the texts are multivalent. They will support any number of valid interpretations.

It’s not so much a question of “who’s right/who’s wrong” so much as it is “who has the best interpretation for me?” Xy is a study in diversity, not a curator of uniformity. “Orthodoxy” represents a fairly wide path of interpretation. The fact that the historic church has a major divide between East/West attests to that.

In one instance, you are correct. Xtians are, by and large, an emotional lot. And many will defend their “version” at any cost. They don’t want to “share the path.” And that’s sad and unfortunate for all.
 
lewisnotmiller

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Vinayaka said:
You're right, it's nice to know what to expect from someone. But to pry at it in any depth with a superiourity complex; that's what I'm getting at.
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Got ya.
There's too much of that in the world. Kinda runs against a lot of things I believe About how we learn and grow.
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
lewisnotmiller said:
Got ya.
There's too much of that in the world. Kinda runs against a lot of things I believe About how we learn and grow.
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On the rare occasion that I'm asked to host a person or a group at our temple, I admit, in the discussion after, that, if I don't know what school they're from (we get regular groups from both a Baptist college, and a Lutheran college) I'll ask. It's a courtesy query so I know how not to offend them.

I truly think that atheism is the most logical position, even though I'm not personally an atheist. My personal faith isn't based on logic at all, but on personal mystical experiences that aren't easily explained by logic. I have no reason to prove that to anyone.

I don't understand or really get how anyone can take their personal belief and make broad claims that it just makes more sense than any other belief. Sure, some do make more sense than others, but belief is still belief. So any group that rants on and on about how they're right, and others are wrong just seems totally illogical in the fact that it fails to recognise diversity. It's like the person who insists one make of car is and always will be the very best make of car. it's stubborn, but more importantly, closes the mind to the idea that something better might come along. Unwavering loyalty to a brand. That's how I see most of the fundamentalists here. It's a scary mindset to me, because it seems that that person could easily be duped into doing something totally foolish for their brand, and indeed, in my view, some do, like becoming purposefully impoverished and neglecting family to stand on street corners and preach, or spending 15 hours a day on internet forums preaching. Taking it to the car analogy, it's the guy who spends $30 000 more than he has to just to buy a brand.

In short, way too cultish for my liking.

Sorry for the rant.
 
A

Aliens

Member
Link said:
Part of the wisdom, of hiding the leader, is so we without judging each other differences, come back to the leader and guide and seek the day. It's so we say, all humans whether Atheist, Gay, Polytheists, etc, to not be judged, but all work together on what we agree, try to establish justice, seek the truth together and allow discussion to take place regarding the truth openly and without hate. The miracles talked about in the old books all have a purpose, and we have to prepare to accept these miracles as proofs when they will be presented to us, but till then, we are to forbear each other differences and disputes.

Disbelief is when miracles are present, it's in this context it was condemned. When the miracles are hidden, so is God's proof who is the one proven by them, and when he is hidden, so his guidance, and when guidance is hidden, don't judge people.

"O you who believe, if you travel in the earth, never say to anyone you are not a believer...."-Chapter 4 - Quran.
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What you believe is opinion
What you seek is truth
Only the light shines on those who seek the truth
 
lewisnotmiller

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Vinayaka said:
On the rare occasion that I'm asked to host a person or a group at our temple, I admit, in the discussion after, that, if I don't know what school they're from (we get regular groups from both a Baptist college, and a Lutheran college) I'll ask. It's a courtesy query so I know how not to offend them.

I truly think that atheism is the most logical position, even though I'm not personally an atheist. My personal faith isn't based on logic at all, but on personal mystical experiences that aren't easily explained by logic. I have no reason to prove that to anyone.

I don't understand or really get how anyone can take their personal belief and make broad claims that it just makes more sense than any other belief. Sure, some do make more sense than others, but belief is still belief. So any group that rants on and on about how they're right, and others are wrong just seems totally illogical in the fact that it fails to recognise diversity. It's like the person who insists one make of car is and always will be the very best make of car. it's stubborn, but more importantly, closes the mind to the idea that something better might come along. Unwavering loyalty to a brand. That's how I see most of the fundamentalists here. It's a scary mindset to me, because it seems that that person could easily be duped into doing something totally foolish for their brand, and indeed, in my view, some do, like becoming purposefully impoverished and neglecting family to stand on street corners and preach, or spending 15 hours a day on internet forums preaching. Taking it to the car analogy, it's the guy who spends $30 000 more than he has to just to buy a brand.

In short, way too cultish for my liking.

Sorry for the rant.
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Phhht. I was nodding along.
Didn't sound rantish to me. Perhaps we are both rantish on this issue!! Lol
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
sealchan said:
Emotionality is unavoidable. In Jungian psychology outbursts of emotionality or "affect" are seen as problematic BUT they are also seen as vital clues to the particular bias or configuration of the individual psyche. These emotionally charged parts of ourself require our acknowledgement and attention. They offer us spiritual riches if we dare to encounter them.

One poster here recently spoke of how they found a way around an inner "selfish" dark voice by focusing on the "right" sort of inspiration in the area of music. I felt that they may be missing an opportunity by circumventing this font of darkness and not trying to encounter it. By listening only to positive music one may defend ones self against the depth of ones own soul.

I will readily admit that feelings of despair have driven my own faith. I think that suffering is a common denominator behind religious faith. But those who do not fully acknowledge their suffering or who do not take their interest in fantasies or fictions seriously may also be actively denying a need for spiritual truth. Rampant literalism doesnt help in that it muddles spiritual play with the boast of "one way" factuality.
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Yes that is true. There is a place for emotion. I tend to be a lot more analytical so I try to pump up my feelings with Christian music. According to Baha'i beliefs all God wants is our hearts:

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness.......

Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue. Thus hath it been ordained by the Fingers of Bahá, upon the Tablet of God’s irrevocable decree, by the behest of Him Who is the Supreme Ordainer, the All-Knowing.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 275, 279

I do try to love God but it is difficult because I have suffered so much and still do and I cannot help but connect it to God since I analyze it and determine that God made the world this way so He is responsible for the inadvertent suffering that is not caused by our own free will choices. :(
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LuisDantas said:
@Trailblazer , you rated my previous post "Creative", but I think that it comes with the premise.

If Ibrahim/Abraham's God somehow exists, he clearly did not "come for everyone" equally. The very fact that the creeds that refer to that God rely so much on intermediaries (in the form of prophets and written revelations) is witness to that simple reality.

Even more significant is that so many people reach so many wildly divergent conclusions while referring to either the Bible or the Qur'an (I see Judaism as a bit of a special case). How interested can a hypothetical ominipotent God be in reaching all people if he apparently can't be bothered to achieve a clear message even for those who go out of their way to refer to him?
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I cannot say I know if God wants to reach everyone. All I can say is that I think that everyone has the potential to be reached. Why or why not they are or are not is variable and also mysterious.

Another thing is that this life is only a small part of our total existence so much awaits all of us in the spiritual world. What that is is a mystery. Baha'u'llah wrote that some fruits only ripen after they fall from the tree, meaning it might not be meant to happen in this earthly life.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
sojourner said:
You’ve fallen into a classic trap: that of thinking that the Bible can only be interpreted in one correct way. In fact, the texts are multivalent. They will support any number of valid interpretations.

It’s not so much a question of “who’s right/who’s wrong” so much as it is “who has the best interpretation for me?” Xy is a study in diversity, not a curator of uniformity. “Orthodoxy” represents a fairly wide path of interpretation. The fact that the historic church has a major divide between East/West attests to that.

In one instance, you are correct. Xtians are, by and large, an emotional lot. And many will defend their “version” at any cost. They don’t want to “share the path.” And that’s sad and unfortunate for all.
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Yes, there is more than one interpretation of any verse that can be correct. The problems ensue when Christians insist they have the one and only correct interpretation. This causes division and strife. I think that the ego causes this so if people are aware of this they can try to overcome the tendency. After all, nobody can prove who is right and who is wrong, it's a belief. :)
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Windwalker said:
Which may be that atheism is more in touch with God than all the religions that claim they are the truth to the exclusion of all other perspectives. Have you ever considered that atheism may be more spiritually awake than most religions?
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I think that some atheists are more spiritual than some religious people.
It is not necessary to *believe* that God exists to live a spiritual life and all people who believe that God exists are not spiritual, Imo.
 
Aupmanyav

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Link said:
The miracles talked about in the old books all have a purpose, and we have to prepare to accept these miracles as proofs when they will be presented to us,
Disbelief is when miracles are present, it's in this context it was condemned.
"O you who believe, if you travel in the earth, never say to anyone you are not a believer...."-Chapter 4 - Quran.
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That is funny., Twelver. Today, people require solid proof. We are not satisfied with what is written in the books. It could be complete falsehood.
If I don't believe, I don't. Why it should concern anyone else? Who worries about condemnation from a few misguided igorant people?
I have never hesitated to declare to the world that I am a strong atheist, who does not even believe in the possibility of existence of God or of Prophets, sons, messengers, imams, manifestations, mahdis, etc.
 
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Aupmanyav

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Aliens said:
God is an atheist because God does not believe in a God.
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Add: 'other than himself'. Of course, Hindu deities are different. They acknowledge and act very respectfully to each other. Shiva and Krishna having fun together.

main-qimg-b0b329506babde54e804c0210b4df594
shiva krishna.jpeg
 
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Aupmanyav

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Trailblazer said:
According to Baha'i beliefs all God wants is our hearts: .. be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness ..
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Why? Does he want a heart transplant? Must be getting old (after 6,000 years). I have only one and I do not want to part with it.
I have no problem about treading the path of righteousness, but why do I need to believe in a God and fear him for it? I can do that without believing in a God. What kind of funny arguments do you and Bahaullah propose!
Trailblazer said:
.. this life is only a small part of our total existence so much awaits all of us in the spiritual world. What that is is a mystery.
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Mystery, that means you cannot provide any proof for it. Just heresay, and you want us to believe that?
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Trailblazer said:
No, what he was implying is that God wants some people but not others.
What kind of a God would that be?
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Personally, I can't relate to the idea of a God that cares what humans think of him/her/it at all, whether that's expressed through wanting some people to know about him/her/it, wanting everyone to know about him/her/it, or hiding from people.
 
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