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Jesus vs. Nietzsche

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
No one is good but God. You seek freedom from the masters, yet you cannot escape from yourself. How will you know if your efforts are good or evil. The will to power you seek is only an excuse to please yourself. Good is lost with the death of God.

Everyman is ultimately a slave to desire. The burden of passion is heavy. The burden of God is light. You've escaped one master only to be enslaved by another. Sure it is easy to break the chains of goodness and light. Turn your face from God. The chains that hold you now are not so easily broken.
That's the thing about Nietzsche. It's not freedom from the masters, it's freedom the slaves and masters. And to Nietzsche, Christianity represents a slave mentality. But not only that, it gives a facade of purpose and meaning because it's all prescribed how you should live. The Übermensch lives by thou shalt, not "thou shall not." Christianity, and it's prepackaged responses such as the one you gave (its been said a trillion times before) is a life destroying tragedy that creates a source of nihilism as it devoted and kills the soul of what makes us human. Those denominations that prohibit music and dance, that is great tragedy and tragically wasted life to Nietzsche.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
That's the thing about Nietzsche. It's not freedom from the masters, it's freedom the slaves and masters. And to Nietzsche, Christianity represents a slave mentality. But not only that, it gives a facade of purpose and meaning because it's all prescribed how you should live. The Übermensch lives by thou shalt, not "thou shall not." Christianity, and it's prepackaged responses such as the one you gave (its been said a trillion times before) is a life destroying tragedy that creates a source of nihilism as it devoted and kills the soul of what makes us human. Those denominations that prohibit music and dance, that is great tragedy and tragically wasted life to Nietzsche.

Well said!
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Nietzsche would berate Jesus as nihilist venom, and enemy of a passionate and well lived life, and a pupet of the masters to keep the slaves obediant and subdued.


Actually, Nietzsche had deep and abiding admiration for Jesus - it was Christianity he abhorred. In The Will to Power, he argued that Christians were crassly hypocritical:


"The Christians have never practiced the actions Jesus prescribed them; and the impudent garrulous talk about the "justification by faith" and its supreme and sole significance is only the consequence of the Church's lack of courage and will to profess the works Jesus demanded...In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. . . . What has been called 'evangel' from that moment was actually the opposite of that which he had lived.

One should not confuse Christianity as a historical reality with that one root that its name calls to mind: the other roots from which it has grown up have been far more powerful. It is an unexampled misuse of words when such manifestations of decay and abortions as "Christian church, "Christian faith" and "Christian life" label themselves with that holy name.

What is wrong with Christianity is that it refrains from doing all those things that Christ commanded should be done. The church is precisely that against which Jesus preached and against which he taught his disciples to fight.

What did Christ deny? Everything that is today called Christian.”


The Will to Power, 158


Its true that he derided Jesus's teachings for their exoneration of the weak ("slave morality"). He called Jesus a "political criminal," fighting against the established order: "It [Jesus's rebellion] was a rebellion against . . . caste, privilege, order, and formula...to stand all valuations on their head", which in Nietzsche's eyes - as a believer in classical Greek, aristocratic hierarchy ("the Dionysian life-affirming values") and will to power - was an obscenity to the natural order of things.

But still, while he bitterly disagreed with elements of Jesus's ethics, he admired his dominating personality: "[T]here was only one Christian, and he died on the cross" (Nietzsche, AC 39).

Nietzsche believed that Jesus was a rebel teacher who desired to implement actual earthly peace to improve society in the here and now, through "the exclusion of all aversion and hostility" and a condition of the heart (as opposed to just 'afterlife' bliss). Again in Antichrist:


"One sees what came to an end with the death on the Cross: a new, an absolutely primary beginning to a Buddhistic peace movement, to an actual and not merely promised happiness on earth...

The incapacity for resistance here becomes morality (‘resist not evil!’: the profoundest saying of the Gospel, its key in a certain sense), blessedness in peace, in gentleness, in the inability for enmity. What are the ‘glad tidings’? True life, eternal life is found — it is not promised, it is here, it is within you: as life lived in love, in love without deduction or exclusion, without distance. Everyone is a child of God — Jesus definitely claims nothing for himself alone — as a child of God everyone is equal to everyone else...

The ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ is a condition of the heart — not something that comes ‘upon the earth’ or ‘after death’. The entire concept of natural death is lacking in the Gospel: death is not a bridge, not a transition, it is lacking because it belongs to quite another world, a merely apparent world useful only for the purpose of symbolism. The ‘hour of death’ is not a Christian concept — the ‘hour’, time, physical life and its crises, simply do not exist for the teacher of the ‘glad tidings’. . . . The ‘kingdom of Heaven’ is not something one waits for; it has no yesterday or tomorrow, it does not come ‘in a thousand years’ — it is an experience within a heart; it is everywhere, it is nowhere . . .

This ‘bringer of glad tidings’ died as he lived, as he taughtnot to ‘redeem mankind’ but to demonstrate how one ought to live. What he bequeathed to mankind is his practice: his bearing before the judges, before the guards, before the accusers and every kind of calumny and mockery — his bearing on the Cross. He does not resist, he does not defend his rights, he takes no steps to avert the worst that can happen to him — more, he provokes it. . . . And he entreats, he suffers, he loves with those, in those who are doing evil to him. His words to the thief on the Cross contain the whole Evangel. ‘That was verily a divine man, a child of God!’ — says the thief. ‘If thou feelest this’ — answers the redeemer — ‘thou art in Paradise, thou art a child of God.’ Not to defend oneself, not to grow angry, not to make responsible. . . . But not to resist even the evil man — to love him . . ."


So for Nietzsche - Jesus was a great, fascinating if at times (to him) frustrating guy whose legacy was trashed by those who came after him (putting it in laymen's terms).
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Today I've been daydreaming about a debate between Jesus and Nietzsche. If I could watch any two people in history debate, it would be Jesus Christ and Friederich Nietzsche. Both were extremely arrogant and witty and had polar opposite viewpoints on nearly everything. Can you imagine a debate between these two guys? Their tempers would probably flare constantly. For example (to quote each of them): Nietzsche would say "—Must I add that, in the whole New Testament, there appears but a solitary figure worthy of honour? Pilate, the Roman viceroy." And then Jesus would yell "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!" And Nietzsche would say "This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found—I have letters that even the blind will be able to see.... I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,—I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race...."

Can you imagine the entertainment? I'd pay good money to watch it. Too bad these two never met...

Jesus taught above all to love all people. He taught all to be peacemakers, to forgive one another and see the good in all

Anything other than Love was not taught by Jesus.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Today I've been daydreaming about a debate between Jesus and Nietzsche. If I could watch any two people in history debate, it would be Jesus Christ and Friederich Nietzsche. Both were extremely arrogant and witty and had polar opposite viewpoints on nearly everything. Can you imagine a debate between these two guys? Their tempers would probably flare constantly. For example (to quote each of them): Nietzsche would say "—Must I add that, in the whole New Testament, there appears but a solitary figure worthy of honour? Pilate, the Roman viceroy." And then Jesus would yell "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!" And Nietzsche would say "This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found—I have letters that even the blind will be able to see.... I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,—I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race...."

Can you imagine the entertainment? I'd pay good money to watch it. Too bad these two never met...

Neitzsche was too long winded. Jesus would be considerably more succinct.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Today I've been daydreaming about a debate between Jesus and Nietzsche. If I could watch any two people in history debate, it would be Jesus Christ and Friederich Nietzsche. Both were extremely arrogant and witty and had polar opposite viewpoints on nearly everything. Can you imagine a debate between these two guys? Their tempers would probably flare constantly. For example (to quote each of them): Nietzsche would say "—Must I add that, in the whole New Testament, there appears but a solitary figure worthy of honour? Pilate, the Roman viceroy." And then Jesus would yell "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!" And Nietzsche would say "This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found—I have letters that even the blind will be able to see.... I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,—I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race...."

Can you imagine the entertainment? I'd pay good money to watch it. Too bad these two never met...

In this corner, Nietche, the champion of life is meaningless!
and
In this corner Jesus, who makes everything meaningful with ever increasing enjoyment forever and judgement for even what might seem as secular distractions.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Actually, Nietzsche had deep and abiding admiration for Jesus - it was Christianity he abhorred. In The Will to Power, he argued that Christians were crassly hypocritical:


"The Christians have never practiced the actions Jesus prescribed them; and the impudent garrulous talk about the "justification by faith" and its supreme and sole significance is only the consequence of the Church's lack of courage and will to profess the works Jesus demanded...In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. . . . What has been called 'evangel' from that moment was actually the opposite of that which he had lived.

One should not confuse Christianity as a historical reality with that one root that its name calls to mind: the other roots from which it has grown up have been far more powerful. It is an unexampled misuse of words when such manifestations of decay and abortions as "Christian church, "Christian faith" and "Christian life" label themselves with that holy name.

What is wrong with Christianity is that it refrains from doing all those things that Christ commanded should be done. The church is precisely that against which Jesus preached and against which he taught his disciples to fight.

What did Christ deny? Everything that is today called Christian.”


The Will to Power, 158


Its true that he derided Jesus's teachings for their exoneration of the weak ("slave morality"). He called Jesus a "political criminal," fighting against the established order: "It [Jesus's rebellion] was a rebellion against . . . caste, privilege, order, and formula...to stand all valuations on their head", which in Nietzsche's eyes - as a believer in classical Greek, aristocratic hierarchy ("the Dionysian life-affirming values") and will to power - was an obscenity to the natural order of things.

But still, while he bitterly disagreed with elements of Jesus's ethics, he admired his dominating personality: "[T]here was only one Christian, and he died on the cross" (Nietzsche, AC 39).

Nietzsche believed that Jesus was a rebel teacher who desired to implement actual earthly peace to improve society in the here and now, through "the exclusion of all aversion and hostility" and a condition of the heart (as opposed to just 'afterlife' bliss). Again in Antichrist:


"One sees what came to an end with the death on the Cross: a new, an absolutely primary beginning to a Buddhistic peace movement, to an actual and not merely promised happiness on earth...

The incapacity for resistance here becomes morality (‘resist not evil!’: the profoundest saying of the Gospel, its key in a certain sense), blessedness in peace, in gentleness, in the inability for enmity. What are the ‘glad tidings’? True life, eternal life is found — it is not promised, it is here, it is within you: as life lived in love, in love without deduction or exclusion, without distance. Everyone is a child of God — Jesus definitely claims nothing for himself alone — as a child of God everyone is equal to everyone else...

The ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ is a condition of the heart — not something that comes ‘upon the earth’ or ‘after death’. The entire concept of natural death is lacking in the Gospel: death is not a bridge, not a transition, it is lacking because it belongs to quite another world, a merely apparent world useful only for the purpose of symbolism. The ‘hour of death’ is not a Christian concept — the ‘hour’, time, physical life and its crises, simply do not exist for the teacher of the ‘glad tidings’. . . . The ‘kingdom of Heaven’ is not something one waits for; it has no yesterday or tomorrow, it does not come ‘in a thousand years’ — it is an experience within a heart; it is everywhere, it is nowhere . . .

This ‘bringer of glad tidings’ died as he lived, as he taughtnot to ‘redeem mankind’ but to demonstrate how one ought to live. What he bequeathed to mankind is his practice: his bearing before the judges, before the guards, before the accusers and every kind of calumny and mockery — his bearing on the Cross. He does not resist, he does not defend his rights, he takes no steps to avert the worst that can happen to him — more, he provokes it. . . . And he entreats, he suffers, he loves with those, in those who are doing evil to him. His words to the thief on the Cross contain the whole Evangel. ‘That was verily a divine man, a child of God!’ — says the thief. ‘If thou feelest this’ — answers the redeemer — ‘thou art in Paradise, thou art a child of God.’ Not to defend oneself, not to grow angry, not to make responsible. . . . But not to resist even the evil man — to love him . . ."


So for Nietzsche - Jesus was a great, fascinating if at times (to him) frustrating guy whose legacy was trashed by those who came after him (putting it in laymen's terms).
"The Will to Power" was a handful of notes and scribbles from Nietzsches later years-- when his books were no longer considered canon by any serious Nietzsche scholar due to his failing health and mental decline--was put together as a book by his sister as a piece of Nazi propaganda. Myself, I've never read it because it's Elizabeth Nietzsche using words written by her brother Friedrich.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
And Anti-Christ? The shody work that reflects his decline is rampant throughout that text, which is why it's not canon. It's a shame an embarrassment is even still read.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
In this corner, Nietche, the champion of life is meaningless!
See, that's a lie. Nietzsche never felt that way, and he thought it was a bad thing if people were like that. Ultimately, Nietzsches texts are among the most powerful and life affirming texts ever written.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
And Anti-Christ? The shody work that reflects his decline is rampant throughout that text, which is why it's not canon. It's a shame an embarrassment is even still read.

ln Human All Too Human (1878) Nietzsche described Jesus as “the noblest human being” (1,475) and one “possessing the warmest heart” (1,235).

I think his opinion I this respect remained quite consistent throughout his works.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I just got blocked by someone who had tried to commit suicide. Whenever I think of Nietzsche, I think of what led them toward jumping in the first place. Nihilism. They completely didn't care how they hurt others, their depression wasn't sadness at all, but a form of aggression against the world. Sort of "Life is pointless, so why care what happens to me?" And I asked repeatedly about whether they had friends that would miss them. Turned out I would miss them. Until they wound up jumping mid-conversation just to tell me off. And I realized just how little they would miss me. She survives with a sprain, but decides to unfriend me after I refuse to tell her that life is worthless.
That Sunday we get Jesus's answer to this. Ten lepers get healed but only one goes back and thanks Jesus. And he asks "were not ten healed ?" Despite that an entire church prayed for her for at least two Sundays without knowing her personally, despite that she survived her fall with only a sprain, she showed neither thanks nor remorse. However, I am here today because of Jesus.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Today I've been daydreaming about a debate between Jesus and Nietzsche. If I could watch any two people in history debate, it would be Jesus Christ and Friederich Nietzsche. Both were extremely arrogant and witty and had polar opposite viewpoints on nearly everything. Can you imagine a debate between these two guys? Their tempers would probably flare constantly. For example (to quote each of them): Nietzsche would say "—Must I add that, in the whole New Testament, there appears but a solitary figure worthy of honour? Pilate, the Roman viceroy." And then Jesus would yell "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!" And Nietzsche would say "This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found—I have letters that even the blind will be able to see.... I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,—I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race...."

Can you imagine the entertainment? I'd pay good money to watch it. Too bad these two never met...

And which one will people still adhere to in another 2,000 years? Many college students have never read one sentence of Nietzsche.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Have you not been paying attention to this thread?

I typically jump in midway after reading maybe the title and OP. Sometimes I respond to a post.

But I honestly don't care what individual members say, or the trends of thread. I care about where I fit in to the thread. From what I know of Nietzsche, he first off influenced Hitler's master race mentality and secondly gave birth to the nihilism of the modern age.

Move forward several centuries, and I sitting in a Discord conversation with a girl who just jumped out a window, and I suddenly realize she doesn't give a ****. About me. About her life. About anything really. All she can see is pain and pointlessness, and not even how other people would feel about her being dead or paralyzed can convince her to care.

Now move back two millennia, and we have the Roman Empire. Ostensibly it's polytheism, but actually, they would be right at home with Nietzsche and his apathy about life, and his mentality about life. In fact, if you want an idea of how bad things were... well, the Jewish priests had sold out to the Roman authority (this becomes obvious, when you consider it was their coin in the "render unto Caesar" passage), and there were a large number of sinners (or those who didn't measure up to the Law). Some of them had performed petty crimes, but the greater crime was that they had no money to buy animals to sacrifice. Others were working on Sabbath because their business would go under if they didn't. Still others were lepers or demon-possessed (what modern ppl would call having a psychological problem), making them unclean. And the Jews who had once been a people who traveled with God now had a Temple, where the public couldn't actually speak to him because of a curtain. This is to say nothing of the extreme decadence of Greek and Roman society, often bordering on hedomism. God was very much dead. At least, to all intents and purposes, for the average person.

Then all of sudden, an influential prophet appears, abd alot of ppl are suddenly made well. The priests seem competition, and immediately plot to discredit them. Instead, he basically shows them for what they are, massive sellouts and hypocrites.

We don't need to trade quotes from these two. We can just look at the effects of their life on the world around them. Nietzsche spawned many of the trappings of materialism, along with an epidemic of ppl on antidepressants (that don't treat the real cause). Jesus healed the sick, accepted the sinner, and told off the priests. About all they would have in common reallt is their antipathy to priesthood. But while Jesus provides a light at the end of the tunnel for depressed ppl, Nietsche shoves them into that tunnel with both hands.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I know of Nietzsche, he first off influenced Hitler's master race mentality and secondly
None of that is true. Nietzsche loathed the Nazis, and the only reason his name got tired up with them is because of his ***** sister. No honesty reading of Nietzsche will produce a pro-Nazi conclusion. It's just not there to be found, especially since he detested the anti-semitism of his day.
And he wasn't a nihilist. He denounced and spit upon conventional means and sources of finding purpose als meaning in life, but he himself was concerned about people falling into nihilism, because to him it was just as life destroying as Christianity. And again, it's hard to reach a conclusion of nihilism when he himself wrote some of the most powerfully life affirming texts our species has produced. He had a brilliant and intensely burning lust and passion for life. He's a messiah of the examined life.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Many people have never read a sentence from the Bible. And, globally, Jesus and Christianity are on the decline.

YES! That's why this forum has hundreds of Christian members, plus atheists who troll them.

YES! The Bible has only endured for 3,500 years now.

YES! Only 1/3 of people acknowledge Jesus as Lord worldwide (Christianity), plus 1/3 of people as a prophet (Islam)m so ONLY 2/3 of humanity knows who Jesus is. Jesus is on the decline!

Your good works are almost done! Keep plugging away until none of us have any religion, salvation (IMHO) or objective morality!
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
It doesn't matter whether he loathed the Nazis or not. Hitler was a major Nietzsche fanboy. Which goes to show, even if it's a misread, even if they're your enemies, you are responsible for what you write and the extremes ppl take it.

Nietzsche's Influence on Hitler's Mein Kampf, by M. Kalish

How the Nazis Hijacked Nietzsche, and How It Can Happen to Anybody

See, the thing is, when you write something, you have to be responsible for it, because a wacko can and will take it to its logical extreme. Talk about Darwinist evolution and "survival of the fittest" someone (Hitler also used that) will tell ppl that it's our duty to control favorable evolution and kill off inferior people.

Another one of those who see Christianity as life destroying (probably as a result of some movies where they show "Christians" killing gays or burning abortion clinics, I've seen those movies too and they suck) . Christianity is life destroying but not in the way you'd think. As a result of being shamed by multiple ppl (including these movies) to the point of being cowed, as a result of being told the Crusades were their fault (actually, Islam was at their doorstep in Turkey and Spain, and they were driving it back to its borders), quite a few Christians are pacifists.

( TPAM, Islam misrepresents Jesus, making him a character that requests food from Heaven (see his three temptations to why this is NOT something the real Jesus would do), turning children into pigs (don't ask, it's from al-Tabari), that Jesus and his disciples submitted to the faith of Islam (nvm that Islam came centuries after), and lets someone die in his place. And basically they only mentioned him to sort of point to Muhammad and to be able to say "See? We're the same as you Jews and Christians." Well no, because what you write about many of the Jewish and Christian leaders is either insulting, or not how their text says it happened. So let's call that 1/3 again because that not the Jesus I know. )

Bur remember I said text can be taken to a logical extreme that is unhealthy? Well, week after week, priests around the country preach "love your enemies" and " welcome the stranger". Nevermind that America has a border crisis, as does most of the EU. Nevermind that many of these immigrants are not the brightest and best, but in some cases they send their scumbags, terrorists, and criminals. Jesus also is depicted as some sort of wishy-washy milquetoast type who never rejects anyone.

Soooo, did he welcome Roman officials into his house to spy on him? No. Did he welcome Jewish Pharisees? Not usually (there was one time with that short guy, and another with the guy who didn't do anything for him while that creepy woman used her hair to annoint him). Those two things don't add up to "welcome your enemies.". Yet that's what priests today are trying to push as many of them are idealists or outright radicals.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Today I've been daydreaming about a debate between Jesus and Nietzsche. If I could watch any two people in history debate, it would be Jesus Christ and Friederich Nietzsche. Both were extremely arrogant and witty and had polar opposite viewpoints on nearly everything. Can you imagine a debate between these two guys? Their tempers would probably flare constantly. For example (to quote each of them): Nietzsche would say "—Must I add that, in the whole New Testament, there appears but a solitary figure worthy of honour? Pilate, the Roman viceroy." And then Jesus would yell "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!" And Nietzsche would say "This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found—I have letters that even the blind will be able to see.... I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,—I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race...."

Can you imagine the entertainment? I'd pay good money to watch it. Too bad these two never met...

I believe Nietzsche can sound authoritative but he isn't and Jesus is.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Nietzsche didn't have the context, so it doesn't matter. Ie should not have been talking about religion or theism, at all.

I believe people are free to talk about what they want but philosophy requires logical arguments and I haven't seen any yet.
 
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