Seal of the Prophets - Does it mean Muhammad is the final Prophet?

InvestigateTruth · Oct 14, 2019

Link said:
These are all in context that the all the other Imams had to practice Taqiya and give allegiance to the rulers of their time. Even Imam Hussain at a time did with Mauwiya.

Imam Mahdi has no allegiance to any government, not bound by any of them is what it means.

You are so bias, in how you interpret every hadith.

But if you read that whole hadith (I didn't translate it all), it mentions the Mahdi as Mohammad so of Al-Hassan who is the son of Ali son of Mohammad son of Ali son of Musa son of Jaffar son of Mohammad son of Ali son of Hussain son of Ali and Fatima, daughter of Mohammad.

Read the hadith, it mentions the Mahdi, and so many (39 other hadiths in the book I linked to and there are many more) name the 12 Imams inclusive of the Mahdi, and the hadith explains what Captain means, it means Successor to and Leader after the Prophet.

Yes, in some hadithes it is said, all imams had allegiance to the tyran of their time. Then it appears as if, they mean the Qaim has no allegiance to any tyran. But actually it only appears that. What the Imams said, the Qaim has no allegiance to anyone. That would include Muhammad Himself. The Imams did not want to say this explicit for a wisdom. They spoke through allusions:

It is narrated from Muhammad bin Hamam and Muhammad bin Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jamhur together from Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jamhur from his father from some of his men from Mufaddal Ibne Umar that he said: Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said:

“One tradition, which you comprehend well, is better than ten you narrate. Verily, every truth has a reality and every veracity has an illumination.” Then he said: “We, by Allah, do not consider a man from our Shia to be a Faqih unless when he is addressed through hints and allusions, he understands them.

This Hadith tells us, understanding Hadithes is very difficult. The imams were saying the Qaim will bring totally a new Revelation with a new Book, but they said these through hints and allusions. When we think carefully about their Hadith, we understand them. It is for the same reason, the Qaim is not mentioned clearly in the Quran, but through allusions.

Link · Oct 14, 2019

Circumstantial evidence is not conclusive evidence. You have shown no proof for your interpretation at all. The Quran doesn't say Mohammad is seal of Prophets till another Prophet comes. That would make no sense what so ever.

The hadiths as I showed explained seal of Prophets to mean (1) last Prophet (no Prophet after him) (2) No more divine books from revelations to be held on to by the people (interpretation what Nubuwa is) (3) The other implication is his Shariah is valid till the day of judgment.

You said there is no hadith as such, I opened up Alkafi found one, opened on this book of 40 hadiths, found one, there are probably many times Imams explained what it means.

If you want to play sophistry it's up to you.

Link · Oct 14, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
Yes, in some hadithes it is said, all imams had allegiance to the tyran of their time. Then it appears as if, they mean the Qaim has no allegiance to any tyran. But actually it only appears that. What the Imams said, the Qaim has no allegiance to anyone. That would include Muhammad Himself. The Imams did not want to say this explicit for a wisdom. They spoke through allusions:

It is narrated from Muhammad bin Hamam and Muhammad bin Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jamhur together from Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jamhur from his father from some of his men from Mufaddal Ibne Umar that he said: Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said:

“One tradition, which you comprehend well, is better than ten you narrate. Verily, every truth has a reality and every veracity has an illumination.” Then he said: “We, by Allah, do not consider a man from our Shia to be a Faqih unless when he is addressed through hints and allusions, he understands them.

This Hadith tells us, understanding Hadithes is very difficult. The imams were saying the Qaim will bring totally a new Revelation with a new Book, but they said these through hints and allusions. When we think carefully about their Hadith, we understand them. It is for the same reason, the Qaim is not mentioned clearly in the Quran, but through allusions.

If you don't see the Mahdi/Qaim in Quran clearly, is because you are following mustashibihat as opposed to it's clear signs and building on that. I see the Mahdi clearly in Quran and anything not seen clearly in Quran, is to be abandoned as Quran forbids following anything unclear to us regarding it!

Muffled · Oct 16, 2019

firedragon said:
Well, conceptually, they are very very different people. Jesus the Christ was a Nabi and Rasool. Jesus was given a scripture. He is a completely different picture altogether. But thats according to the philosophy.

I believe then that the philosophy is deficient because Jesus spoke a prophecy that came to pass.

Muffled · Oct 16, 2019

wizanda said:
Unless someone is told directly by the Source there is no more prophets; I'd still find it arrogant of me to assume the Source of reality gave no one else prophetic vision...

Especially when Abrahamically the promised made to Aaron, that God will maintain prophets is still there until Judgement day according to prophecy.

Now we can see historically that Muhammad was informed of the changes to the Bible after it was canonized, where the Quran is a summary, and confirmation of what was previously prophesied.

In my opinion.

According to Paul the Paraclete gives the gift of prophecy to whom He wishes, so prophecy is very much alive in Christianity but I have not heard of anyone being called to be a prophet.

firedragon · Oct 16, 2019

Muffled said:
I believe then that the philosophy is deficient because Jesus spoke a prophecy that came to pass.

Which prophecy?

InvestigateTruth · Oct 23, 2019

Link said:
If you don't see the Mahdi/Qaim in Quran clearly, is because you are following mustashibihat as opposed to it's clear signs and building on that. I see the Mahdi clearly in Quran and anything not seen clearly in Quran, is to be abandoned as Quran forbids following anything unclear to us regarding it!

Only God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge know The interpretation of Mutishabihat verses. The verses about the Qaim are Mutishabihat. Quran means not to follow the Mutishabihat verses according to our own interpretations, because we are supposed to understand their true interpretations from Shia Imams. If we make our personal interpretations, we could be wronge and get mislead, so, we must not follow them. If Qaim was clearly mentioned in the Quran, so many Qurani Muslims did not reject Qaim.

InvestigateTruth · Oct 23, 2019

Link said:
Circumstantial evidence is not conclusive evidence. You have shown no proof for your interpretation at all. The Quran doesn't say Mohammad is seal of Prophets till another Prophet comes. That would make no sense what so ever.

The hadiths as I showed explained seal of Prophets to mean (1) last Prophet (no Prophet after him) (2) No more divine books from revelations to be held on to by the people (interpretation what Nubuwa is) (3) The other implication is his Shariah is valid till the day of judgment.

You said there is no hadith as such, I opened up Alkafi found one, opened on this book of 40 hadiths, found one, there are probably many times Imams explained what it means.

If you want to play sophistry it's up to you.

You should quote the Hadith in Arabic and say from which hadith book it comes.

Link · Oct 23, 2019

Our Imams explains following the best of it (words) is following the clear signs. Building on clear is not only a command by Ahlulbayt, it goes against every fabric of logic to build things on ambiguity. They also in many hadiths as well does Quran describe itself, described the book as Muhkam and clear.

TransmutingSoul · Oct 23, 2019

Link said:
Read the hadith, it mentions the Mahdi, and so many (39 other hadiths in the book I linked to and there are many more) name the 12 Imams inclusive of the Mahdi, and the hadith explains what Captain means, it means Successor to and Leader after the Prophet.

If that is so and the Bab is the Mahdi, the Successor and Leader, then are we not to submit to His wisdom.

It turns out the Mahdi was given Messenger Status by Allah and was able to produce a book like the Quran to prove that Status.

If this is true, how can acceptance of the Mahdi be bias? It is a wrong or right choice to do so.

It turns out that the Mahdi was given the task by Allah to challenge all popular belief and doctrine and show us the error of what we had become. Lovers of Names and forgetful that we all worship Allah. The Madhi prepared us for the 'Day of God' where the 'Glory of God', the 'Self of God' walked amongst us.

Who are we to ignore what Allah has ordained and given?

Regards Tony

Link · Oct 23, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
You should quote the Hadith in Arabic and say from which hadith book it comes.

One of the hadiths I told you the page number and linked you to the book in Arabic for it. The other, the one in Al-Kafi, it's door of that leaders resemble those before and that it's hated to say they have Nubuwa. It's the 3rd hadith in the chapter.

Here is an online translation:

H 704, Ch. 53, h 3
Muhammad ibn Yahya al-Ash’ari has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Barqi from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya ibn ‘Imran al-Halabi from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr who has said that he heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "Allah, Majestic is Whose mention, ended with your prophet the (coming of) the prophets. Thus, there will never come any prophet after him. With your book He ended sending of (heavenly) books. Thus, there will never come other heavenly books. In it (your book) He has placed clarifications for all things, such as your creation and the creation of the heavens and the earth. Therein is the news of the beings before you, the laws that help settle your disputes and the news of the beings that come into being after you, the news of the issues of Paradise and Fire and that to which you proceed."

And the word in Arabic for 'ended' is khatama which is an allusion to the verse, you can go to an al-kafi book and look up the chapter 53 or with the description I gave, and h 3.

TransmutingSoul · Oct 23, 2019

Link said:
So it's clear by these hadiths, the 12th Imam is the Mahdi.

This is a spot on Hadith

“The Mahdi is from me. He will have a high forehead and a curved nose. He will fill the world with fairness and justice just as it will be filled with tyranny and injustice and he will rule for seven years.” (Sunan Abi Dawud)

The Bab declared in 1844 and was executed 1850, 7 years.

Source - Who is Imam Mahdi?

Regards Tony

Link · Oct 23, 2019

There is also this sermon of Imam Ali when he was busy with the funeral rites of the Nabi.

Spoken when Amir al-mu'minin was busy in the funeral ablution (ghusl) of the Holy Prophet and shrouding him
ومن كلام له (عليه السلام)

قاله وهو يلي غسل رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) وتجهيزه

May my father and my mother shed their lives for you. O Messenger of Allah! With your death the process of prophethood, revelation and heavenly messages has stopped, which had not stopped at the death of others (prophets). Your position with us (members of your family) is so special that your grief has become a source of consolation (to us) as against the grief of all others; your grief is also common so that all Muslims share it equally.

If you had not ordered endurance and prevented us from bewailing, we would have produced a store of tears and even then the pain would not have subsided, and this grief would not have ended, and they would have been too little of our grief for you. But this (death) is a matter that cannot be reversed nor is it possible to repulse it. May my father and my mother die for you; do remember us with Allah and make us of your concern.

بِأَبِي أَنْتَ وأُمِّي، لَقَدِ انْقَطَعَ بِمَوْتِكَ مَا لَمْ يَنْقَطِعْ بِمَوْتِ غَيْرِكَ مِنَ النُّبُوَّةِ وَالاْنْبَاءِ وأَخْبَارِ السَّماءِ، خَصَصْتَ حَتَّى صِرْتَ مُسَلِّياً عَمَّنْ سِوَاكَ، وَعَمَمْتَ حَتّى صَارَ النَّاسُ فِيكَ سَواءً، وَلَوْ لاَ أَنَّكَ أَمَرْتَ بِالصَّبْرِ، وَنَهَيْتَ عَنِ الْجَزَعِ، لاَنْفَدْنَا عَلَيْكَ مَاءَ الشُّؤُونِ، وَلَكَانَ الدَّاءُ مُمَاطِلاً، وَالْكَمَدُ مُحَالِفاً، وَقَلاَّ لَكَ! وَلكِنَّهُ مَا لاَ يُمْلَكُ رَدُّهُ، وَلاَ يُسْتَطَاعُ دَفْعُهُ!

بِأَبِي أَنْتَ وَأُمّي! اذْكُرْنَا عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ، وَاجْعَلْنَا مِنْ بَالِكَ!

Alternative Sources for Sermon 234
(1) Al-Mufid, al-'Amali, 60;

(2) Ibn al-'Athir, al-Nihayah, III, 143 (t.y.b);

(3) Muhammad ibn Habib, al-'Amali, 112;

(4) Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Musnad, hadith 228;

(5) Ibn Hisham, al-Sirat al-Nabawiyyah, IV, 213;

(6) al-Baladhuri, Ansab, I, 571;

(7) Abu Ishaq Ibrahim ibn al-Sari ibn Sahl al-Nahwi, al-'Amali;

For (3) & (4) see ‘Abd al-Zahra', III, 182.

InvestigateTruth · Oct 23, 2019

Link said:
There is also this sermon of Imam Ali when he was busy with the funeral rites of the Nabi.

Spoken when Amir al-mu'minin was busy in the funeral ablution (ghusl) of the Holy Prophet and shrouding him
ومن كلام له (عليه السلام)

قاله وهو يلي غسل رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) وتجهيزه

May my father and my mother shed their lives for you. O Messenger of Allah! With your death the process of prophethood, revelation and heavenly messages has stopped, which had not stopped at the death of others (prophets). Your position with us (members of your family) is so special that your grief has become a source of consolation (to us) as against the grief of all others; your grief is also common so that all Muslims share it equally.

If you had not ordered endurance and prevented us from bewailing, we would have produced a store of tears and even then the pain would not have subsided, and this grief would not have ended, and they would have been too little of our grief for you. But this (death) is a matter that cannot be reversed nor is it possible to repulse it. May my father and my mother die for you; do remember us with Allah and make us of your concern.

بِأَبِي أَنْتَ وأُمِّي، لَقَدِ انْقَطَعَ بِمَوْتِكَ مَا لَمْ يَنْقَطِعْ بِمَوْتِ غَيْرِكَ مِنَ النُّبُوَّةِ وَالاْنْبَاءِ وأَخْبَارِ السَّماءِ، خَصَصْتَ حَتَّى صِرْتَ مُسَلِّياً عَمَّنْ سِوَاكَ، وَعَمَمْتَ حَتّى صَارَ النَّاسُ فِيكَ سَواءً، وَلَوْ لاَ أَنَّكَ أَمَرْتَ بِالصَّبْرِ، وَنَهَيْتَ عَنِ الْجَزَعِ، لاَنْفَدْنَا عَلَيْكَ مَاءَ الشُّؤُونِ، وَلَكَانَ الدَّاءُ مُمَاطِلاً، وَالْكَمَدُ مُحَالِفاً، وَقَلاَّ لَكَ! وَلكِنَّهُ مَا لاَ يُمْلَكُ رَدُّهُ، وَلاَ يُسْتَطَاعُ دَفْعُهُ!

بِأَبِي أَنْتَ وَأُمّي! اذْكُرْنَا عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ، وَاجْعَلْنَا مِنْ بَالِكَ!

Alternative Sources for Sermon 234
(1) Al-Mufid, al-'Amali, 60;

(2) Ibn al-'Athir, al-Nihayah, III, 143 (t.y.b);

(3) Muhammad ibn Habib, al-'Amali, 112;

(4) Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Musnad, hadith 228;

(5) Ibn Hisham, al-Sirat al-Nabawiyyah, IV, 213;

(6) al-Baladhuri, Ansab, I, 571;

(7) Abu Ishaq Ibrahim ibn al-Sari ibn Sahl al-Nahwi, al-'Amali;

For (3) & (4) see ‘Abd al-Zahra', III, 182.

This is about immediately after Muhammad. It is like, when Jesus revealed the injil, the Revelation had ended for Christianity. But what is noteworthy, in this Hadith, the heavenly news is ended, not that there won't be revealed another Holy Book when the Qaim comes. It does not say Risaalat is ended. It says Nabuvvat is 'Stopped'. It has nothing to do with meaning of 'Khatam'ul Anbiya'. I have already quoted the Hadith from Imam Ali, explaining exactly why Muhammad is called Khatam'ul Nabiyyin

Link · Oct 23, 2019

It says in the hadith, it has not stopped after death of other Prophets... so... it's enough bro. Circumstantial evidence doesn't prove anything.

Seal of the Prophets - Does it mean Muhammad is the final Prophet?

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