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Evidence That Jesus Is God

D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
‘Lord’ is a title conveying respect and awe and it can refer to Jesus or God depending upon the context of the verse. In Matthew 22:37 Jesus is referring to God as the Lord.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Jesus did not say “Thou shalt love me with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Jesus was commanding them to love the one true God, not to love Him.

Jesus made it clear that God was greater than He was, thus differentiating Himself from God:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

That is God speaking, not Jesus. In this verse, Lord Almighty refers to God. Jesus is not the Lord Almighty. Only the one true God is Almighty.

God is the Lord of all worlds and has power over all things. God is the Most Powerful, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. None of these attributes apply to Jesus.

“O ‘Alí! The bounty of Him Who is the Lord of all worlds hath been, and is still being, vouchsafed unto thee. Arm thyself with His strength and power, and arise to aid His Cause and to magnify His holy name. Let not thine ignorance in human learning and thy inability to read or write grieve thine heart. The doors of His manifold grace are within the mighty grasp of the power of the one true God. He hath opened, and will continue to open, them in the face of all them that serve Him. I fain would hope that this breeze of Divine sweetness will, at all times, continue to be wafted from the meadow of thine heart upon the whole world, in such wise that its effects may be manifested in every land. He it is that hath power over all things. He, verily, is the Most Powerful, the All-Glorious, the Almighty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 312

Jesus is not the One, the Incomparable, the Almighty, the Most Exalted, the Most Great. Only God has these attributes.

“God grant that, with a penetrating vision, thou mayest perceive, in all things, the sign of the revelation of Him Who is the Ancient King, and recognize how exalted and sanctified from the whole creation is that most holy and sacred Being. This, in truth, is the very root and essence of belief in the unity and singleness of God. “God was alone; there was none else besides Him.” He, now, is what He hath ever been. There is none other God but Him, the One, the Incomparable, the Almighty, the Most Exalted, the Most Great.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 191-192

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This verse clearly differentiates Jesus from God by the word “and.” Jesus is referred to as Lord as a way to convey respect and awe.
Click to expand...
This requires an 'interpretation', of scripture, that isn't traditional, nor evidenced. In other words, it isn't the traditional interpretation of OT correlate, even though it seems like it, if one peruses jewish musings, so forth. Judaism in other words has a different religious paradigm, so you can't take that interpretation, and get the correct interpretation.
•••
Even in extra biblical religious idea, we have a 'Jesu God'. Now, it's traditional in biblical, it's traditional in extra biblical, yet you want me to say, it's a wrong correlation? No...there is no reason to do that.

Even the Tetragrammaton, that is traditionally a personal God. In other words, you may not understand how rabbinic judaism differs from Jesus religion context, nor how the deity ideas, differ.
•••
Again just going straightforward from the Bible, you will realize the religious belief you have to square the text, with.
•••
The Lord, a personal God, is the God, of the Believers

Jesus, as a presumably aspect of the Lord
1 Corinthians 8:6
2 Corinthians 6:18
Matthew 22:37
• [also the Lord is One, so forth,
You will realize that 'Jesus' has to be God.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
‘Lord’ is a title conveying respect and awe and it can refer to Jesus or God depending upon the context of the verse. In Matthew 22:37 Jesus is referring to God as the Lord.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Jesus did not say “Thou shalt love me with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Jesus was commanding them to love the one true God, not to love Him.

Jesus made it clear that God was greater than He was, thus differentiating Himself from God:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

That is God speaking, not Jesus. In this verse, Lord Almighty refers to God. Jesus is not the Lord Almighty. Only the one true God is Almighty.

God is the Lord of all worlds and has power over all things. God is the Most Powerful, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. None of these attributes apply to Jesus.

“O ‘Alí! The bounty of Him Who is the Lord of all worlds hath been, and is still being, vouchsafed unto thee. Arm thyself with His strength and power, and arise to aid His Cause and to magnify His holy name. Let not thine ignorance in human learning and thy inability to read or write grieve thine heart. The doors of His manifold grace are within the mighty grasp of the power of the one true God. He hath opened, and will continue to open, them in the face of all them that serve Him. I fain would hope that this breeze of Divine sweetness will, at all times, continue to be wafted from the meadow of thine heart upon the whole world, in such wise that its effects may be manifested in every land. He it is that hath power over all things. He, verily, is the Most Powerful, the All-Glorious, the Almighty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 312

Jesus is not the One, the Incomparable, the Almighty, the Most Exalted, the Most Great. Only God has these attributes.

“God grant that, with a penetrating vision, thou mayest perceive, in all things, the sign of the revelation of Him Who is the Ancient King, and recognize how exalted and sanctified from the whole creation is that most holy and sacred Being. This, in truth, is the very root and essence of belief in the unity and singleness of God. “God was alone; there was none else besides Him.” He, now, is what He hath ever been. There is none other God but Him, the One, the Incomparable, the Almighty, the Most Exalted, the Most Great.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 191-192

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This verse clearly differentiates Jesus from God by the word “and.” Jesus is referred to as Lord as a way to convey respect and awe.
Click to expand...
What you clearly don't realize, is that when you separate Jesus from deity, you do not derive the Tetragrammaton, as the biblical deity, or an aspect of the biblical deity. This makes no sense as the Tetragrammaton is called the biblical deity. OT.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Desert Snake said:
This requires an 'interpretation', of scripture, that isn't traditional, nor evidenced. In other words, it isn't the traditional interpretation of OT correlate, even though it seems like it, if one peruses jewish musings, so forth. Judaism in other words has a different religious paradigm, so you can't take that interpretation, and get the correct interpretation.
•••
Even in extra biblical religious idea, we have a 'Jesu God'. Now, it's traditional in biblical, it's traditional in extra biblical, yet you want me to say, it's a wrong correlation? No...there is no reason to do that.

Even the Tetragrammaton, that is traditionally a personal God. In other words, you may not understand how rabbinic judaism differs from Jesus religion context, nor how the deity ideas, differ.
•••
Again just going straightforward from the Bible, you will realize the religious belief you have to square the text, with.
•••
The Lord, a personal God, is the God, of the Believers

Jesus, as a presumably aspect of the Lord
1 Corinthians 8:6
2 Corinthians 6:18
Matthew 22:37
• [also the Lord is One, so forth,
You will realize that 'Jesus' has to be God.
Click to expand...
The Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is God in a representative sense.

Firstly, he says that he has come in his Father's name. To come in the name of another is to represent that other.

Secondly, he says that everything he has has been given, committed, accounted, and/or granted to him by his God and Father.

Thirdly, all the works he did he credited to his God and Father.

Fourthly, he has been given the name "Lord" by his God who has exalted him above all things. Which refers back to my first point.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LightofTruth said:
Interestingly, Jesus is called the son of the Most High. Trinitarianism says that Jesus, "God the son" they call him, is the Most High. :eek:

Jesus was not a trinitarian because he has a God.
Click to expand...
It is all there to discover in the scriptures...
And of course if we apply logic to it, Trinitarianism has to go right out the window. :eek:
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LightofTruth said:
The Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is God in a representative sense.

Firstly, he says that he has come in his Father's name. To come in the name of another is to represent that other.
Click to expand...
Baha’is believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God because He manifested God on earth, and Jesus was a representative of God because He represented God on earth, but the Divine Being is One and Incomparable:

“The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God’s most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes. If any be set up by His side as peers, if they be regarded as identical with His Person, how can it, then, be maintained that the Divine Being is One and Incomparable, that His Essence is indivisible and peerless? Meditate on that which We have, through the power of truth, revealed unto thee, and be thou of them that comprehend its meaning.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Desert Snake said:
This requires an 'interpretation', of scripture, that isn't traditional, nor evidenced. In other words, it isn't the traditional interpretation of OT correlate, even though it seems like it, if one peruses jewish musings, so forth. Judaism in other words has a different religious paradigm, so you can't take that interpretation, and get the correct interpretation.
Click to expand...
Who is to say who has the correct interpretation of scripture? That is the hundred-dollar question.
In other words, why do you think that the *traditional Christian interpretation* is the correct interpretation?

Who gave anyone authority to interpret the Bible?
If Jesus did not give anyone authority, I do not think anyone can have authority.

Do you realize that all the divisions within Christianity are the direct result of Christians interpreting scripture differently?
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
It is all there to discover in the scriptures...
And of course if we apply logic to it, Trinitarianism has to go right out the window. :eek:
Click to expand...
In my early 30's, when I first became interested in Christianity, I accepted Trinitarianism as being true. Later, when I began to see the importance of reason and logic, I rejected my mere acceptance of Trinitarianism as true, and came to believe in the God who is also Jesus' God.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Desert Snake said:
What you clearly don't realize, is that when you separate Jesus from deity, you do not derive the Tetragrammaton, as the biblical deity, or an aspect of the biblical deity. This makes no sense as the Tetragrammaton is called the biblical deity. OT.
Click to expand...
But how does Tetragrammaton translate to Jesus?
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LightofTruth said:
In my early 30's, when I first became interested in Christianity, I accepted Trinitarianism as being true. Later, when I began to see the importance of reason and logic, I rejected my mere acceptance of Trinitarianism as true, and came to believe in the God who is also Jesus' God.
Click to expand...
I am glad you used logic and came to your senses.... Unfortunately most Christians just believe what the Church has taught them, and they do not think for themselves.

There is no *reason* why reason and logic have to conflict with religious beliefs. Moreover, if we do not employ them, we are just going on emotion. There is no reason we cannot also have emotion, we need it if we are to be near to God, but to be led by it is a dangerous way to live, and truth can never be found that way.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
Baha’is believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God because He manifested God on earth, and Jesus was a representative of God because He represented God on earth, but the Divine Being is One and Incomparable:

“The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God’s most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes. If any be set up by His side as peers, if they be regarded as identical with His Person, how can it, then, be maintained that the Divine Being is One and Incomparable, that His Essence is indivisible and peerless? Meditate on that which We have, through the power of truth, revealed unto thee, and be thou of them that comprehend its meaning.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70
Click to expand...

Jesus' disciple asked Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus replied "if you have seen me you have seen my Father".

Now, in order to Scripturally understand what Jesus meant, we must look at what he said elsewhere.

1) He said, "I have come in my Father name".
2) He said "the works I do are not my own but my Father's"
3) He said "the words I speak are not my own but my Father's
4) He said, all authority has been given to me of my Father"

etc, etc.......
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
I am glad you used logic and came to your senses.... Unfortunately most Christians just believe what the Church has taught them, and they do not think for themselves.

There is no *reason* why reason and logic have to conflict with religious beliefs. Moreover, if we do not employ them, we are just going on emotion. There is no reason we cannot also have emotion, we need it if we are to be near to God, but to be led by it is a dangerous way to live, and truth can never be found that way.
Click to expand...
The Scripture speaks of knowledge, understanding and wisdom to be more desired than anything else.

The only thing that would negate those things is not having love.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member


LightofTruth said:
Dude, all Trinitarians put me on ignore.:D

It's because I ask real questions and give real answers.
Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with trinitarianism. By the way, why don't you explain how you are defining trinitarianism, so I can tell you if my beliefs, match that. Since you just called me a trinitarian.
 
Last edited:
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LightofTruth said:
Jesus' disciple asked Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus replied "if you have seen me you have seen my Father".
Click to expand...
Jesus also said "I am my Father are one."

What has happened is that most Christians interpret these verses to mean that Jesus is God.

But what they mean, Imo, is that Jesus is a perfect mirror image of God, a perfect reflection of God, so to SEE Jesus is to SEE God. The Almighty God cannot become flesh, so He manifested Himself in the flesh.

I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense I believe in a Trinity; but I do not think that these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Some people get lost in that chapter, so I wrote up a brief encapsulation of it;

There is only One God.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which became visible and evident in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Comforter, Counselor, Helper, and Advocate are all descriptive terms or titles used for the Bounty of God that came to us through the Holy Spirit.
 
Windwalker

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
JJ50 said:
He was no sort of god, just a human with faults like the rest of us.
Click to expand...
He was given the title Son of God by his followers, as a direct challenge to Julius Caesar, who was viewed as God manifest in flesh. The title Son of God came from Julius Caesar, and here's what one inscription from Ephesus, 49 BCE,

Descendant of Ares and Aphrodite

The God who has become manifest (θεὸν ἐπιφανῆ)

And universal savior (σωτῆρα) of human life
​
So yes, the early Christians saw Jesus as God, just the way the Romans viewed Caesar as God. That was Caesar's title given to Jesus to say, "No Rome, Jesus is the true manifestation of God, not your Caesar." It was a challenge which one was the true God in flesh. To the Christian, that was Jesus.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.
Click to expand...

Or, just literally, God is in Jesus. Or, God is Jesus. Makes more sense to me.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
Jesus also said "I am my Father are one."

What has happened is that most Christians interpret these verses to mean that Jesus is God.

But what they mean, Imo, is that Jesus is a perfect mirror image of God, a perfect reflection of God, so to SEE Jesus is to SEE God. The Almighty God cannot become flesh, so He manifested Himself in the flesh.

I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense I believe in a Trinity; but I do not think that these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Some people get lost in that chapter, so I wrote up a brief encapsulation of it;

There is only One God.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which became visible and evident in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Comforter, Counselor, Helper, and Advocate are all descriptive terms or titles used for the Bounty of God that came to us through the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
THAT'S AWESOME!
 
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