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How Will You Cope When I'm Away?

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I misinterpreted motives then when the recent payout lawsuit was announced.
From what I am reading they are not happy about those losses in court, but it is my understanding that Bayer intends to fight them. From what I heard, the Bayer stockholders are still smoldering over the Monsanto deal and the unexpected hit that is causing Bayer.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Thar's a visual. :sunglasses:



I'll add mine and we'll have a game. Whats say?
source.gif
I don't have all of mine to play with anymore.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
From what I am reading they are not happy about those losses in court, but it is my understanding that Bayer intends to fight them. From what I heard, the Bayer stockholders are still smoldering over the Monsanto deal and the unexpected hit that is causing Bayer.
It would seem I put "too much" into the timing from the Bayer buyout (or whatever it technically legally was) and the announcement of that suit.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I've been thinking of summat smart to say in reply.......but.....not enough marble power :(
I have one for haggis, but I am not sure if it fits within the rules, but it is probably no more racy than some of the things I have seen on here.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
According to the USDA, it is illegal to sell poultry in the US that was raised with added hormones. So why are companies like Perdue plastering their packaged chicken with labels like “No Hormones or Steroids Added”? ... But the truth is that ALL chicken – regardless of the label – NEVER has any added hormones.Jul 31, 2017
https://peelbackthelabel.org/resources/case-studies/perdue-chicken/
That I did not know. But I also avoid antibiotics because they are rampantly overused, contribute to treatment-resistant strains of bacteria, and I've long suspected detrimental to our immune system when overused.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
It would seem I put "too much" into the timing from the Bayer buyout (or whatever it technically legally was) and the announcement of that suit.
It is still possible that it is a carcinogen, though one wonders where all the bodies are if that is the case, considering how long it has been available. Most studies do not show any link to cancer or manipulation of hormonal balance. The biggest driver behind the move to litigation was the declaration that it was a probable carcinogen by some obscure UN/FAO panel. This was based on some pretty weak data and may have been political as much as anything. Not everything a big company does is pure evil or harmful. But sometimes it is.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
That I did not know. But I also avoid antibiotics because they are rampantly overused, contribute to treatment-resistant strains of bacteria, and I've long suspected detrimental to our immune system when overused.
Antibiotic use in animal production was, maybe still is, one of the biggest non-therapeutic uses of antibiotics and probably has a significant impact on the development of resistance. It has been some time since I looked into it, but years ago, it was still unknown what the mechanism of the antibiotics in animal production was. All that was known was that significant growth occurred when antibiotics were included in feeding. When getting size and quickly is an important aspect of production, most producers and companies were not really worried about why or what else might happen. We now know something else that should have been researched more widely.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It is still possible that it is a carcinogen, though one wonders where all the bodies are if that is the case, considering how long it has been available. Most studies do not show any link to cancer or manipulation of hormonal balance. The biggest driver behind the move to litigation was the declaration that it was a probable carcinogen by some obscure UN/FAO panel. This was based on some pretty weak data and may have been political as much as anything. Not everything a big company does is pure evil or harmful. But sometimes it is.
Yup. I've felt comfortable thinking glysophate should be studied more, but it might be a "scary thingy" like GMOs in general. But, one downside I am definitely seeing is the spread of "super weeds," which are becoming resistant to even the "super weed killer." Basic evolution, but we're clearly fighting an unwinnable war against "pests and bugs" and will inevitably and perpetually fuel the negatives of how we are and have influenced the evolution of other species. We really need to rethink things from the ground up.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Yup. I've felt comfortable thinking glysophate should be studied more, but it might be a "scary thingy" like GMOs in general. But, one downside I am definitely seeing is the spread of "super weeds," which are becoming resistant to even the "super weed killer." Basic evolution, but we're clearly fighting an unwinnable war against "pests and bugs" and will inevitably and perpetually fuel the negatives of how we are and have influenced the evolution of other species. We really need to rethink things from the ground up.
I do not consider GMO's to be all that scary. In many ways, we have been modifying the genomes of animals and plants for 10 or 15 thousand years and modern genetic techniques actually allow for that modification to be done much more precisely and accurately without bringing in a host of unwanted and unneeded traits. However, there are risks and resistance is one of the biggest and well-studied one of those.

I know of a couple of plant varieties that were developed using traditional methods that were found to be excellent for the traits of interest, but it turns out had some nasty issues with food safety and had to be dropped. From another perspective, common foods like celery and turnips, that many eat regularly, would probably fail some of the modern regulations followed in determining acceptability. Not to mention the amount of pesticides reductions that have occurred in some crops. Something like strawberries would benefit from GMO versions that would remove numerous residues from the shelf.

I think that popular works like Silent Spring were an important aspect of informing us about the unintended consequences of the overuse of chemicals in agriculture and the need to research not just the impact of chemistry on the targets, but on non-target species. Also how these things impacted the overall ecology. One of the more rational and pragmatic ideas to come out of the recognition of problems that book showcased as well as springing from work by many scientists was taking pest control from eradication to management. Management does not require that you wipe out the insects in crops, and many you wouldn't want to anyway, but uses an integrated approach that does not rely on a single means to manage insect and weed problems. Crop rotation, hygiene, biological controls, pesticides, both chemical and biological, GMO's, timing and many other factors are now considered and used in concert.

Pesticide use is still a major issue and the ecological impact on non-target species, resistance, residues on crops and in ground water, and other long term issues will be problems for us for some time to come. Especially as more and more people continue to be produced and greater production is required from less available land.

None of this even considers climate change and the outlook there is certainly not rosy.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Yup. I've felt comfortable thinking glysophate should be studied more, but it might be a "scary thingy" like GMOs in general. But, one downside I am definitely seeing is the spread of "super weeds," which are becoming resistant to even the "super weed killer." Basic evolution, but we're clearly fighting an unwinnable war against "pests and bugs" and will inevitably and perpetually fuel the negatives of how we are and have influenced the evolution of other species. We really need to rethink things from the ground up.
We do need to continue to find new approaches to production that will be sustainable and still meet the needs of a growing population within a changing climatic environment too.

Recognizing that unwinnable war was really unwinnable has lead to some important discoveries and applications. But I agree with you that we need to know a lot more about what is going on and with larger scale production.

There is a lot of small scale production methods that are much more environmentally and human-health friendly that get overlooked, because they are not the industrial scale that large companies love. A significant amount of resources should be directed to some of that research so that important tools are not lost in the crowd.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
There is a lot of small scale production methods that are much more environmentally and human-health friendly that get overlooked, because they are not the industrial scale that large companies love.
I think that may be our "agriculture salvation." The way we do things now is extremely inefficient, ineffective, and it involves tons wasted food and resources with tons more that could be cut out if we depended more upon local farmers. And of course we also need to learn what healthy amounts of meat consumption are, and significantly cut down on that. We also need to stop wasting so much food on products that are basically made to waste (cases of food at grocery stores, mountains of still good food at fast food and restaurants being thrown out, and we could probably spare a few less holidays of gluttony). McDonalds may be convenient, but really we would be better off without, as would the Earth.
I do not consider GMO's to be all that scary. In many ways, we have been modifying the genomes of animals and plants for 10 or 15 thousand years and modern genetic techniques actually allow for that modification to be done much more precisely and accurately without bringing in a host of unwanted and unneeded traits. However, there are risks and resistance is one of the biggest and well-studied one of those.
I agree, and I see the fears of GMOs on par with the fears of vaccines. And really with bad results too boot. We don't have to involve chemicals or bioengineering to produce "genetically modified organisms," and with our brains alone we have made wonderful progress in diversifying and enhancing our food supply. And in some places, even with bioengineering, it may be the only option we are left with to address hunger and starvation in impoverished nations while addressing our species exponentially growing need for food. Studies are needed still so we can find out more, but I do believe it will be GMO substances that will ultimately end the human desire and want for meat from living animals.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that may be our "agriculture salvation." The way we do things now is extremely inefficient, ineffective, and it involves tons wasted food and resources with tons more that could be cut out if we depended more upon local farmers. And of course we also need to learn what healthy amounts of meat consumption are, and significantly cut down on that. We also need to stop wasting so much food on products that are basically made to waste (cases of food at grocery stores, mountains of still good food at fast food and restaurants being thrown out, and we could probably spare a few less holidays of gluttony). McDonalds may be convenient, but really we would be better off without, as would the Earth.

I agree, and I see the fears of GMOs on par with the fears of vaccines. And really with bad results too boot. We don't have to involve chemicals or bioengineering to produce "genetically modified organisms," and with our brains alone we have made wonderful progress in diversifying and enhancing our food supply. And in some places, even with bioengineering, it may be the only option we are left with to address hunger and starvation in impoverished nations while addressing our species exponentially growing need for food. Studies are needed still so we can find out more, but I do believe it will be GMO substances that will ultimately end the human desire and want for meat from living animals.
There are also other techniques where advances in molecular biology can be applied to agriculture that do not involve any genetic engineering. Molecular breeding combines the techniques developed in molecular biology with traditional breeding to produce new varieties of plants and animals that have desirable traits with fewer undesirable traits. Techniques like marker assisted selection and mapping are observational and not used to move genes around, but still allow for increased efficiency in breeding.

There are a few companies doing some interesting and very low impact work on products to increase the shelf-life of foods. Edible coatings that can be easily applied, cut down on waste and enhance the quality of food in places where modern storage technology is limited or unavailable.

There is a lot of cool work taking place out there and lots of small stakeholders innovating in ways that big companies do not always have to ability to maneuver in.

Genetic engineering is going to remain an important tool, but regulation and compliance are going to have to follow it hand in hand. Currently, regulation of genetically engineered production falls under the USDA, FDA and the EPA. While not perfect, having that level of scrutiny seems to be effective in driving a high level of compliance.

About 20 years ago, survey after survey indicated that most consumers were completely unaware of what was in the food they were eating. One question asked if DNA should be allowed in food and there was a significant number of people that thought it should be kept out and regulated. So an unintended benefit of genetic engineering was that many more people now pay attention to what is in the food they are eating.

Food security and production under climate change are going remain big challenges. The need for innovation from government, universities, large companies and smaller stakeholders under sound and reasonable regulation is critical to maintaining and improving that.

There are a lot of arguments over organic production and clearly, completely organic production cannot take place on a scale that would be sufficient to provide for global demand, but the market for it continues to grow based on consumer demand. While there is no substantial difference in organic food and food from conventional production, there is generally lower inputs in organic and reductions in chemical residues that would have health benefits and it is probably more important on local levels by adding a choice to those markets.

In thinking about my answers here, I realize that I have been out of touch with this subject for far too long. It is very interesting and one of the more important issues of our day. From perusing Google, it looks like I need to do some catch up.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that may be our "agriculture salvation." The way we do things now is extremely inefficient, ineffective, and it involves tons wasted food and resources with tons more that could be cut out if we depended more upon local farmers. And of course we also need to learn what healthy amounts of meat consumption are, and significantly cut down on that. We also need to stop wasting so much food on products that are basically made to waste (cases of food at grocery stores, mountains of still good food at fast food and restaurants being thrown out, and we could probably spare a few less holidays of gluttony). McDonalds may be convenient, but really we would be better off without, as would the Earth.

I agree, and I see the fears of GMOs on par with the fears of vaccines. And really with bad results too boot. We don't have to involve chemicals or bioengineering to produce "genetically modified organisms," and with our brains alone we have made wonderful progress in diversifying and enhancing our food supply. And in some places, even with bioengineering, it may be the only option we are left with to address hunger and starvation in impoverished nations while addressing our species exponentially growing need for food. Studies are needed still so we can find out more, but I do believe it will be GMO substances that will ultimately end the human desire and want for meat from living animals.
There is a company that has moved into Missouri from its start in California that is producing meat substitutes using plant protein as the basis. I do not know much about it, but replacing meat seems to be one of their goals. There is another, older business, that uses fungal protein as the basis of meat substitutes, but what I recall is long out of date, though I know some of the companies in that area are still around.

I am not sure about eliminating the desire, but getting very meat-like products that compete well with traditional meat products or producing lab-grown meat, cheaply and at high quality will go a long way to reduction in animal ag production. It could be significant.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
There is a company that has moved into Missouri from its start in California that is producing meat substitutes using plant protein as the basis. I do not know much about it, but replacing meat seems to be one of their goals. There is another, older business, that uses fungal protein as the basis of meat substitutes, but what I recall is long out of date, though I know some of the companies in that area are still around.

I am not sure about eliminating the desire, but getting very meat-like products that compete well with traditional meat products or producing lab-grown meat, cheaply and at high quality will go a long way to reduction in animal ag production. It could be significant.
I may be too optimistic, but I believe once we have a viable and satisfying meat alternative there will be nothing holding back the "flood gates of guilt." It won't be overnight, and hunting/fishing will still be a necessary source of food for some, but after a couple generations I think the harvesting and slaughtering of animals will be reexamined and requestioned, and we may see a generational shift in meat consumption that will carry on into the next and so on, until humans have given up meat.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I may be too optimistic, but I believe once we have a viable and satisfying meat alternative there will be nothing holding back the "flood gates of guilt." It won't be overnight, and hunting/fishing will still be a necessary source of food for some, but after a couple generations I think the harvesting and slaughtering of animals will be reexamined and requestioned, and we may see a generational shift in meat consumption that will carry on into the next and so on, until humans have given up meat.
I do not have philosophical objections to meat consumption, but lean on more practical reasons for reducing the consumption. I am against cruelty to animals that are produced with that end in mind, though I know that some consider that end to be part of the cruelty. Without sounding completely objectionable, I like eating steaks, ham, bacon and all the rest. But diets heavy in that are just not healthy and people can exist without it, even if I am reluctant to go that far.

It could happen and trends are definitely building in that direction. It would not be impossible to do it if there are viable and realistic alternatives.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The guidelines that Perdue follows, created by the National Chicken Council

The term "National Chicken Council" cracks me up. I picture a stern looking board headed up by Foghorn Leghorn.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
I have one for haggis, but I am not sure if it fits within the rules, but it is probably no more racy than some of the things I have seen on here.

Do let's hear it!

My favourite is Groundskeeper Willie's:

'Git yer haggis right here! Chopped heart and lungs , boiled in a wee sheep’s stumick! Tastes as gud as it sounds! Gud for what ails yer!'
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Once again, I head off this morn for a week of merriment, revelry, wrenching,
& smoke belching at the big fall engine show. Friend & foe alike may breathe
a sigh of relief, as my posting rate plummets.
I'll be treating a group of Gannon University engineering students & their prof
to a guided tour (lead by someone else...someone qualified) of the displays.
I know what you're thinking...corrupting the youth of Ameristan. Aye, tis the goal.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Once again, I head off this morn for a week of merriment, revelry, wrenching,
& smoke belching at the big fall engine show. Friend & foe alike may breathe
a sigh of relief, as my posting rate plummets.
I'll be treating a group of Gannon University engineering students & their prof
to a guided tour (lead by someone else...someone qualified) of the displays.
I know what you're thinking...corrupting the youth of Ameristan. Aye, tis the goal.
New engines or old engines?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I may be too optimistic, but I believe once we have a viable and satisfying meat alternative there will be nothing holding back the "flood gates of guilt." It won't be overnight, and hunting/fishing will still be a necessary source of food for some, but after a couple generations I think the harvesting and slaughtering of animals will be reexamined and requestioned, and we may see a generational shift in meat consumption that will carry on into the next and so on, until humans have given up meat.

I hope you are right.
 
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