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Music and perception

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
A common misconception. :) It was really because God made a covenant (like a marriage covenant) with Israel that they would worship only Him. And so when they worshiped other gods it was like spiritual adultery to God.
It would help me if I knew the context, but I don't.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
... I wanted to debate one on the existence of the enemy of the christian religion

To me the greatest enemy of the Christian religion are those who call themselves Christians but who don't put the teachings of the Christ into every day acts.

I'm not a Christian, but my reading in the Christian Bible tells me that those whom I'm thinking of worship "mammon" and not God (we see these in politics), those who disparage the "least of these" rather than hold out a loving hand and those who do not uphold the Law of Love in their emotions and actions uphold and rather promote falsehood, hatred, anger and fear.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
And, in a different point since you emphasized music, I quite like this saying God gave us music that we might pray without words.

Related to this is what St. Francis of Assisi said:
“It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching.”

“...As for me, I desire this privilege from the Lord, that never may I have any privilege from man, except to do reverence to all, and to convert the world by obedience to the Holy Rule rather by example than by word.”

 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to go into how I know that's not the point. I started when I was young and every time I tried to make a song it would come out dark,

To be perfectly frank, the best Christian music has 'darker' tones it, from Gregorian and Orthodox chant to the haunted melodies of Hildegard von Bingen. That stuff is hair-raising. Why modern artists don't go that direction is a total mystery to me. I'd throw every modern christian rock song in the trash if it meant 'agnus dei' could be preserved
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
So yeah music what about music? I was gifted with a great ability to make music a gift from God. I'm not going to go into how I know that's not the point. I started when I was young and every time I tried to make a song it would come out dark, creepy messed up. I was doing for my own selfish reasons trying to make money or the new best song. Hated it because I dont like evil. Then I noticed when I went from say worshipping jesus in song and then switching to creating my own song I would turn into something else. The way I felt would change and I would change and the song would turn out how i didn't want it to.... opposite of light. I tried and tried to make a happy pleasent song but it never turned out that way always dark. Then finally i renounced music if I couldn't make it the way wanted it to I wouldn't make it at all. then just yesterday I decided to worship jesus with my music. I did finally did what I wanted it to do for years turn out happy and good. Came to me right away that I suppose to worship God with it not use for my own selfish reasons. I don't regret all these years I could have done alot because in this lesson proved more that jesus truly my lord and savior and debunks all thoughts that my beliefs are wrong. I choose to serve him for the rest of my days because i do truly love him.......... ***mod edit***

May the Creator of all bless you, but I don't think there is much to debate
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No that's not what I was saying I was saying I would like to convert a non religious person to christianity so I wanted to debate one on the existence of the enemy of the christian religion

Its always good to have new people join our forum from all faiths. I do need to emphasise that preaching and proselytizing are against the forum rules.

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.


RF Rules

Our forum mission is:

As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.

So do share, discuss and even debate your beliefs, but not for the purpose of converting another to your religion.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Adrian
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
So yeah music what about music?
A melody of minor to minor can be made to sound upbeat, therefore it becomes uplifting.

A sorrowful turn can be ever so bouncy, in a melody that was afloat.

Without big lows, and big highs, music has no depths to it; same applies with our understanding.

All music within us should be used to unconditionally love the Source of reality; otherwise it just sounds boring.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I guess the existence of the enemy in christian religion against non religious people and there believe that he doesn't exist.
What is there to be debated in that? Some people believe in disembodied demons, while most do not. What's to debate?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
So yeah music what about music? I was gifted with a great ability to make music a gift from God. I'm not going to go into how I know that's not the point. I started when I was young and every time I tried to make a song it would come out dark, creepy messed up. I was doing for my own selfish reasons trying to make money or the new best song. Hated it because I dont like evil. Then I noticed when I went from say worshipping jesus in song and then switching to creating my own song I would turn into something else. The way I felt would change and I would change and the song would turn out how i didn't want it to.... opposite of light. I tried and tried to make a happy pleasent song but it never turned out that way always dark. Then finally i renounced music if I couldn't make it the way wanted it to I wouldn't make it at all. then just yesterday I decided to worship jesus with my music. I did finally did what I wanted it to do for years turn out happy and good. Came to me right away that I suppose to worship God with it not use for my own selfish reasons. I don't regret all these years I could have done alot because in this lesson proved more that jesus truly my lord and savior and debunks all thoughts that my beliefs are wrong. I choose to serve him for the rest of my days because i do truly love him.......... ***mod edit***
My thought is that people can be partly healed and matured by music if they let it. It is a sound which reaches into our different parts, drawing them together. The images you have of your pained self and your comforted self are actually the same person, and it is important to understand that there are painful and pleasant experiences which are part of the same life. The music has its highs and lows and its gaps, its rhythms. Music rewards you for being comfortable with yourself and punishes you when you are not. It is often like light which enters and exposes things in the dark. Obviously some music is better than other music and requires a skilled musician, but often it is not a lack of skill which repels us but the exposure of uncomfortable feelings.

Obviously sometimes we are just bored of certain music, and that is not what I am talking about.

Another thought I have is that God doesn't need music, but people do. Play your songs for them and God through them. The Christian scripture asks "How can you love God who is invisible if you don't love your brother who is visible?" Also it says that we are made in the image of God and that God dwells among us, that we are stones of a temple, that we are the vessels and the the light from the Father shines through us. I'm convinced that worship does not rise up into some spaceward direction but instead is for ministering to people, and that is after all the truest way to worship God. What need has God for food or clothing or music or any other thing?
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I know I wasn't saying that I was just sharing what I went through. I used to listen techno and trance and all that alot of emotion but it wasn't christian it was fine it pleasent but that's not the point I was trying to make
What makes it 'Christian' music?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I guess the existence of the enemy in christian religion againt non religious people and there believe that he doesn't exist.

Cognitive science can explain everything in the OP. We can start with the idea of "expert intuition". We all have many areas of expertise that we cannot adequately explain. Things as simple as walking. If you think you can explain in detail how you walk, head on over to Silicon valley. Companies working on robotics will pay you millions of dollars for your explanation.

Based on the OP, you have expertise in music. The fact that it doesn't seem to be under your conscious control isn't at all surprising, it's a classic example of expert intuition.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I started when I was young and every time I tried to make a song it would come out dark, creepy messed up. I was doing for my own selfish reasons trying to make money or the new best song. Hated it because I dont like evil.
When we create music it comes from something inside of us. Perhaps as you saw an aspect of yourself you preferred to repress in your consciousness, emerge into an expressed form, it troubled you that this was inside of you. It frightened you because you thought you had denied it enough that it was not part of you. But this is reality. We all have those darker voices inside of us.

The greatest art is usually born from a place of spiritual anguish. Rather then being afraid of it, or calling it "evil" or "creepy", and running to hide from it, you may wish to acknowledge its face in you and come to peaceable terms with it through self-acceptance. I would suggest for you you might benefit from talking with a therapist.

And BTW, most people when learning music will have the ego get all excited about the recognition that fame and fortune may bring to it. It's not that there's not also a genuine love of music, but an immature ego likes to get in there and have a little fun for itself fantasizing of the glorious recognition it will get. That gradually becomes unimportant as the ego matures and realizes it's not about itself that this is for, that "art for art's sake" is what really matters, as opposed to "art for entertainment".

Then I noticed when I went from say worshipping jesus in song and then switching to creating my own song I would turn into something else.
Both of these are within you. You have your personal "darkness" as well as "light" and hope and joy and vision. This interaction is what makes the expression of these deep senses within ourselves what they are. If you repress and deny the darkness, you actually feed it and make it stronger. If you wish to have only lollipops and rainbows, feeling good, good, good, all the time, you are empowering that darkness through your fear of it, and soon enough it becomes the devil to you, seeking your destruction.

On the other hand, if you acknowledge and face that which frightens you in you, without fear, then that demon will be seen more like a wounded puppy dog that was only growling and showing its fangs because it felt abandoned and afraid. Once you show it love, now it is no longer a threat and you can have a healthy relationship with that messy little pooch you'd thrown out in the allyway when you were younger and it seemed a good idea at the time.

Now all of a sudden, that energy you had expended into protecting yourself from your "devil" will be directed to doing good in your life, and your music will become truly real.

Music is a fantastic vehicle for exploring our inner landscapes. We have a lot of different energies within us, and rather than branding some as "evil", which makes them evil, use that same energy to serve good. Otherwise, it's just rage.

The way I felt would change and I would change and the song would turn out how i didn't want it to.... opposite of light. I tried and tried to make a happy pleasent song but it never turned out that way always dark.
What I hear you saying is that you didn't like that that voice in you was coming out. But guess what? Think of it this way. As you were trying to be happy, God helped you by bringing up things in yourself to face that stand in your way of happiness. You were in essense saying "I want to be happy", and your subconsious mind said, "Alright, then it's time for you to start here facing your own inner demons".

So rather than trying to escape them, rather than using the pursuit of God as a spiritual bypassing of doing the dirty work of self-inventory, use God as the strength to face yourself, to learn to accept yourself, to love yourself, to forgive yourself, and to live free from the fear of the devil you created.

Then finally i renounced music if I couldn't make it the way wanted it to I wouldn't make it at all. then just yesterday I decided to worship jesus with my music. I did finally did what I wanted it to do for years turn out happy and good.
Great, but don't imagine your work is done yet. It'll be there right alongside everything else, and even become stronger the more you try to repress and deny it, pleading with God to make it go away so you don't have to face it.

Came to me right away that I suppose to worship God with it not use for my own selfish reasons.
When we express our art for the sake of God or Beauty, "art for art's sake", or love for love's sake alone, then authencity shines through, and the music becomes an expression of the divine in its most freest forms.

Music becomes a great litmus test for us as to where our focus is. I can always feel the performance drops down when the focus is off the music for its sake alone, to thinking about how others judge me as a musician, either worried about things, or imagining how good they must think I am. This is natural for the human ego to want to find good bits to feed upon, "look at me! I'm special, aren't I?".

But when you recognize it, and understand it like an immature child wanting attention, and that you don't need to do that anymore because your fulfilment comes through expressing music genuinely through it, then you just acknowledge it, pat it gently on the top of its head and say, "we don't need that here", then it will learn to take your lead and not pester you with its distractions as you are busy pursuing expressing Truth.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So yeah music what about music? I was gifted with a great ability to make music a gift from God. I'm not going to go into how I know that's not the point. I started when I was young and every time I tried to make a song it would come out dark, creepy messed up. I was doing for my own selfish reasons trying to make money or the new best song. Hated it because I dont like evil. Then I noticed when I went from say worshipping jesus in song and then switching to creating my own song I would turn into something else. The way I felt would change and I would change and the song would turn out how i didn't want it to.... opposite of light. I tried and tried to make a happy pleasent song but it never turned out that way always dark. Then finally i renounced music if I couldn't make it the way wanted it to I wouldn't make it at all. then just yesterday I decided to worship jesus with my music. I did finally did what I wanted it to do for years turn out happy and good. Came to me right away that I suppose to worship God with it not use for my own selfish reasons. I don't regret all these years I could have done alot because in this lesson proved more that jesus truly my lord and savior and debunks all thoughts that my beliefs are wrong. I choose to serve him for the rest of my days because i do truly love him.......... ***mod edit***
same Guy gave instruction.....when you pray
Go to your closet and close the door
and the Spirit that knows you will hear your prayer

that's creepy

and then …..I....noticed
God was God of the DARKNESS
BEFORE
He was Creator of light

He dwelt in the darkness

and the creation of light is an aberration
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So yeah music what about music? I was gifted with a great ability to make music a gift from God. I'm not going to go into how I know that's not the point. I started when I was young and every time I tried to make a song it would come out dark, creepy messed up. I was doing for my own selfish reasons trying to make money or the new best song. Hated it because I dont like evil. Then I noticed when I went from say worshipping jesus in song and then switching to creating my own song I would turn into something else. The way I felt would change and I would change and the song would turn out how i didn't want it to.... opposite of light. I tried and tried to make a happy pleasent song but it never turned out that way always dark. Then finally i renounced music if I couldn't make it the way wanted it to I wouldn't make it at all. then just yesterday I decided to worship jesus with my music. I did finally did what I wanted it to do for years turn out happy and good. Came to me right away that I suppose to worship God with it not use for my own selfish reasons. I don't regret all these years I could have done alot because in this lesson proved more that jesus truly my lord and savior and debunks all thoughts that my beliefs are wrong. I choose to serve him for the rest of my days because i do truly love him.......... ***mod edit***

Amen, glad God gave you such a wonderful gift--a gift that will encourage others.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No that's not what I was saying I was saying I would like to convert a non religious person to christianity so I wanted to debate one on the existence of the enemy of the christian religion

May I volunteer?
So, what have you got?

Ciao

- viole
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
So yeah music what about music? I was gifted with a great ability to make music a gift from God. I'm not going to go into how I know that's not the point. I started when I was young and every time I tried to make a song it would come out dark, creepy messed up. I was doing for my own selfish reasons trying to make money or the new best song. Hated it because I dont like evil. Then I noticed when I went from say worshipping jesus in song and then switching to creating my own song I would turn into something else. The way I felt would change and I would change and the song would turn out how i didn't want it to.... opposite of light. I tried and tried to make a happy pleasent song but it never turned out that way always dark. Then finally i renounced music if I couldn't make it the way wanted it to I wouldn't make it at all. then just yesterday I decided to worship jesus with my music. I did finally did what I wanted it to do for years turn out happy and good. Came to me right away that I suppose to worship God with it not use for my own selfish reasons. I don't regret all these years I could have done alot because in this lesson proved more that jesus truly my lord and savior and debunks all thoughts that my beliefs are wrong. I choose to serve him for the rest of my days because i do truly love him.......... ***mod edit***

I sounds like you were drawing your music from an inner voice that was strengthened through the art of music. Then your more conscious ego disapproved of that and rejected that expression of your psyche. When composing after the influence of the sort of music you did appreciate that would give you some successful experiences but further tinkering led you to alter the music back into a form you consciously disapproved of.

Now that you have a method by which to more reliably create the music that you like, you have some success it seems. However, you have, perhaps, missed an opportunity for exploring what it is in your self that wanted to make your music so dark. That inner voice was, once again, rejected by your ego that found a way around having to listen, perhaps, more closely to that disregarded voice within.

I recommend that you spend some time allowing your music to speak this inner negative voice and then in self-reflective dialog, try to understand what sort of need it is trying, poorly perhaps, to express. I may be that that voice represents a crucial aspect of your self and that dialoging with it in this way will serve to grow your self in a spiritual way. Allow that darkness some light with your own better sense to temper it and see what further integration you might achieve of spiritual wholeness.
 
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