Christendom as a Flavian conspiracy

TagliatelliMonster · Oct 8, 2019

Jayhawker Soule said:
... while assiduously leaving a vast quantity of peer reviewed scholarship unread, because such stuff is far less titillating and far more challenging. It is so much better to waste one's time on some obscure conspiracy theory.

And this brings to mind an H. L. Mencken quote:

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

Did you somehow miss the rest of the post?

Like the sentences preceeding the first one you quoted?
Where I explicitly say that would want to know what the peers have to say and what they counter arguments are?

In subsequent posts, you can read about how I then looked up that information and then formed a conclusion.

PruePhillip · Oct 9, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
So the other day I was scrolling on youtube and came accross this clip making the case for how Christianity was actually a Roman invention to fight jewish "terrorists" with psyOps propaganda.

You can better say Christianity is a conspiracy of the Old Testament
writers. It was they who first mentioned a "new covenant" and they
spoke of the coming Messiah who would be rejected of the Jews and
take this covenant out to the Gentiles.

sooda · Oct 9, 2019

Regiomontanus said:
Capable? Yes. Any evidence? No.

No legit scholar of early Christianity would take this seriously.

They take Scofield seriously.

sooda · Oct 9, 2019

PruePhillip said:
You can better say Christianity is a conspiracy of the Old Testament
writers. It was they who first mentioned a "new covenant" and they
spoke of the coming Messiah who would be rejected of the Jews and
take this covenant out to the Gentiles.

Where does it say he would be Messiah to the Gentiles?

Jeremiah was called the weeping prophet..

Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,

My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

PruePhillip · Oct 9, 2019

sooda said:
Where does it say he would be Messiah to the Gentiles?

Genesis 49 is the earliest I can think of. There's probably quite a few before that.

The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

ecco · Oct 9, 2019

PruePhillip said:
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

Not too many nations obeyed and are obeying. Just another failed make-believe prophecy.

Of course, maybe it will happen with the second coming, any day now.

sooda · Oct 9, 2019

ecco said:
Not too many nations obeyed and are obeying. Just another failed make-believe prophecy.

Of course, maybe it will happen with the second coming, any day now.

Well, scripture was redacted and amended many times to validate prophecy.

Shiloh is a place name where the Jews had a tabernacle and worshiped before Jerusalem.

"When Shiloh comes" is thought to refer to Jesus by Christians and to Muhammed by Muslims.

"When Shiloh comes" is a benediction.. a blessing from Jacob to his son Judah even though royal authority didn't come to Judah until the time of David.

PruePhillip · Oct 10, 2019

ecco said:
Not too many nations obeyed and are obeying. Just another failed make-believe prophecy.

Of course, maybe it will happen with the second coming, any day now.

True, and not true.
The Gentiles believed upon Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.
As for following through on that - well, that's another story. But that's not
what Jacob meant.
He meant that the Gentiles would believe on the Messiah and the Jews
would not. And the Jewish nation, its law and monarchy would end with
this Messiah.

sooda · Oct 10, 2019

PruePhillip said:
True, and not true.
The Gentiles believed upon Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.
As for following through on that - well, that's another story. But that's not
what Jacob meant.
He meant that the Gentiles would believe on the Messiah and the Jews
would not. And the Jewish nation, its law and monarchy would end with
this Messiah.

Do you think that anyone who was present when Jacob was blessing his sons knew what Jacob meant? Do you think they knew it was a prophesy about Jesus? I mean considering that the Exodus was a myth?

PruePhillip · Oct 10, 2019

sooda said:
Do you think that anyone who was present when Jacob was blessing his sons knew what Jacob meant? Do you think they knew it was a prophesy about Jesus? I mean considering that the Exodus was a myth?

You have no evidence nor proof that the Exodus was a myth.
People don't normally boast of once being slaves.
But Jacob's comment, in the late Bronze Age, is a precise
prediction of
1 - a nation for the Hebrews
2 - a monarchy
3 - a law
4 - the Messiah coming
5 - the Gentiles believing on this Messiah
6 - the Hebrew nation, its monarch and its law all ending.

MAYBE THIS WAS WRITTEN DURING LATE ROMAN TIMES?
In fact, "scholars" date "prophetic" writing to a period AFTER a
prophecy happens because "the future hasn't happened yet."
So yes, this Jacob's verse must have been added after the Roman
period - only, it's in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
So, it best to ignore this, Sooda.

nb
I am sure the Jews "back then" would have wondered about
that. Certainly in Egypt it would have a topic of great interest.

sooda · Oct 10, 2019

PruePhillip said:
You have no evidence nor proof that the Exodus was a myth.
People don't normally boast of once being slaves.
But Jacob's comment, in the late Bronze Age, is a precise
prediction of
1 - a nation for the Hebrews
2 - a monarchy
3 - a law
4 - the Messiah coming
5 - the Gentiles believing on this Messiah
6 - the Hebrew nation, its monarch and its law all ending.

MAYBE THIS WAS WRITTEN DURING LATE ROMAN TIMES?
In fact, "scholars" date "prophetic" writing to a period AFTER a
prophecy happens because "the future hasn't happened yet."
So yes, this Jacob's verse must have been added after the Roman
period - only, it's in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
So, it best to ignore this, Sooda.

nb
I am sure the Jews "back then" would have wondered about
that. Certainly in Egypt it would have a topic of great interest.

There is not the tiniest bit of evidence for the Exodus. The Jews know its a morality tale about redemption.. There was no Goshen.. There was Geshem Arabia to the East of the Euphrates but not until 900 BC.

The Egyptians couldn't stand shepards.

At the time of the Exodus Egypt controlled Sinai and Canaan.. and Canaanite cities paid tribute to Pharaoh (Moses couldn't recall his name) The cities were involved in mining, metallurgy, pottery making and they were protected by Egyptian garrisons.

Its only 135 miles across Sinai and there's little pasture or water.. there's no way 2 million Israelites and their herds could survive.. The goats and sheep would have numbered a minimum of 25 million animals.

There are many more reasons, but that's enough for the moment.. Its a great story.. they crossed water (chaos, Yam Suf) out of the ignorance of not knowing God..

The Dead Sea Scrolls only date to 200 BC.

Desert Snake · Oct 10, 2019

No...

PruePhillip · Oct 11, 2019

sooda said:
There is not the tiniest bit of evidence for the Exodus. The Jews know its a morality tale about redemption.. There was no Goshen.. There was Geshem Arabia to the East of the Euphrates but not until 900 BC.

The Egyptians couldn't stand shepards.

At the time of the Exodus Egypt controlled Sinai and Canaan.. and Canaanite cities paid tribute to Pharaoh (Moses couldn't recall his name) The cities were involved in mining, metallurgy, pottery making and they were protected by Egyptian garrisons.

Its only 135 miles across Sinai and there's little pasture or water.. there's no way 2 million Israelites and their herds could survive.. The goats and sheep would have numbered a minimum of 25 million animals.

There are many more reasons, but that's enough for the moment.. Its a great story.. they crossed water (chaos, Yam Suf) out of the ignorance of not knowing God..

The Dead Sea Scrolls only date to 200 BC.

I wrote the university of New England about some large, ornately carved sandstone blocks.
Must have been a building. They lay all around top of a hill with a weird "aboriginal" carving
centered there. The university professor had done a paper on the carving, but said she
"did not see" the stones. "Probably of convict origin" she wrote. You had to climb over the
stones to reach the summit, and convicts did nothing like this. She was blind - probably
because Aborigines are now known for dressing stone for buildings. Could have been a
bad career move.
I was reminded how blind scientists can be. Made me wonder of those who dig in Egypt,
a Muslim country. How many things get re-buried?

BTW, the 40 years of the supposed time in the wilderness - says in Exodus that 38 of them
we spent travel to or from, or staying at Kadesh.
It's long been known that Egypt controlled the Levant - but the politics of the time we are
not privy to known.
Please don't say "there's no way...."
There's no way Jacob could have made his prediction about the line of Judah, but he did.
And there's no way the Jews, scattered all over the world, could come back to Israel, but
they are doing it, still.

PruePhillip · Oct 11, 2019

sooda said:
Do you think that anyone who was present when Jacob was blessing his sons knew what Jacob meant? Do you think they knew it was a prophesy about Jesus? I mean considering that the Exodus was a myth?

I bet you none of the brothers knew what Jacob was talking about.
Nor did Judah, probably.
And no-one in the bible knew what "And God commanded the seas
to bring forth life" meant.
And no-one, in the days before the Babylonian exile, knew what
Isaiah meant when he said God would call his people out of the
nations "a second time."

PruePhillip · Oct 11, 2019

sooda said:
Well, scripture was redacted and amended many times to validate prophecy.

Shiloh is a place name where the Jews had a tabernacle and worshiped before Jerusalem.

"When Shiloh comes" is thought to refer to Jesus by Christians and to Muhammed by Muslims.

"When Shiloh comes" is a benediction.. a blessing from Jacob to his son Judah even though royal authority didn't come to Judah until the time of David.

Royal authority more or less STARTED in David's day.
Before then we had the Prophets who ruled.
The word Shiloh is used for the Messiah, like lion, lamb,
vine, branch, Michael, son of man, king, prince etc etc..

Augustus · Oct 11, 2019

sooda said:
The Egyptians couldn't stand shepards.

Why? That's a bit harsh...

Boooooooooo..... Look at sheep boy and his stupid fuzzy sheep. Stupid girly sheep that look like pretty little clouds. Do you want a ribbon for you girly sheep so you can marry her? You should have a camel like me! My camel will kick your girly sheep in the face and make her cry. Camels FTW!

sooda · Oct 12, 2019

PruePhillip said:
I wrote the university of New England about some large, ornately carved sandstone blocks.
Must have been a building. They lay all around top of a hill with a weird "aboriginal" carving
centered there. The university professor had done a paper on the carving, but said she
"did not see" the stones. "Probably of convict origin" she wrote. You had to climb over the
stones to reach the summit, and convicts did nothing like this. She was blind - probably
because Aborigines are now known for dressing stone for buildings. Could have been a
bad career move.
I was reminded how blind scientists can be. Made me wonder of those who dig in Egypt,
a Muslim country. How many things get re-buried?

BTW, the 40 years of the supposed time in the wilderness - says in Exodus that 38 of them
we spent travel to or from, or staying at Kadesh.
It's long been known that Egypt controlled the Levant - but the politics of the time we are
not privy to known.
Please don't say "there's no way...."

There's no way Jacob could have made his prediction about the line of Judah, but he did.
And there's no way the Jews, scattered all over the world, could come back to Israel, but
they are doing it, still.

What does that have to do with the Exodus?

Jacob was blessing his son Kudah before a battle.

The Dead Sea Scrolls only date to 200 BC.

PruePhillip · Oct 12, 2019

sooda said:
What does that have to do with the Exodus?

Jacob was blessing his son Kudah before a battle.

The Dead Sea Scrolls only date to 200 BC.

Jacob blessed his sons before he died. It was a Bronze Age custom.
There's lots of Bronze Age customs that Jews of the time of David
and Babylon knew nothing about. One of them, the shoe scene in
Samuel, had to be explained.
Don't know where you get this battle thing from. What are your
sources?
Jacob did not elaborate on this "Shiloh" and apparently it needed
no elaboration. So even at this time Messianic stories must have
abounded.

As an aside, I read this in Wikipedia today concerning the Book of
Job. "... close analysis suggests that the foreign words and foreign
looking forms are literary affectations designed to lend authenticity
to the book's distant setting."

So there you go, the circular argument, ie "We can show there's
no evidence of an ancient origin to the Book of Job. Any examples
of an ancient origin were placed there to impress readers, because,
as we know, the book is not ancient at all."

Job spoke of his Redeemer as being alive and one day standing
upon the earth. Jacob spoke of this Redeemer coming when the
nation of Israel is at an end and he will be obeyed by the Gentiles
instead.

sooda · Oct 13, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Jacob blessed his sons before he died. It was a Bronze Age custom.
There's lots of Bronze Age customs that Jews of the time of David
and Babylon knew nothing about. One of them, the shoe scene in
Samuel, had to be explained.
Don't know where you get this battle thing from. What are your
sources?
Jacob did not elaborate on this "Shiloh" and apparently it needed
no elaboration. So even at this time Messianic stories must have
abounded.

As an aside, I read this in Wikipedia today concerning the Book of
Job. "... close analysis suggests that the foreign words and foreign
looking forms are literary affectations designed to lend authenticity
to the book's distant setting."

So there you go, the circular argument, ie "We can show there's
no evidence of an ancient origin to the Book of Job. Any examples
of an ancient origin were placed there to impress readers, because,
as we know, the book is not ancient at all."

Job spoke of his Redeemer as being alive and one day standing
upon the earth. Jacob spoke of this Redeemer coming when the
nation of Israel is at an end and he will be obeyed by the Gentiles
instead.

Yes I know. Some elderly people still give deathbed blessings.

Judah is the ruling tribe and the scepter belongs to this tribe. Jacob blessed Judah in Gen 49:10 (NIV) by prophesying, "Judah, your brothers will praise you; your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons will bow down to you.

What we do know is that Goshen didn't exist. Geshin was east of the Nile..

PruePhillip · Oct 13, 2019

sooda said:
Yes I know. Some elderly people still give deathbed blessings.

Judah is the ruling tribe and the scepter belongs to this tribe. Jacob blessed Judah in Gen 49:10 (NIV) by prophesying, "Judah, your brothers will praise you; your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons will bow down to you.

What we do know is that Goshen didn't exist. Geshin was east of the Nile..

Judah wasn't the ruling tribe in Jacob's day. My reading of Genesis is that
none of them were. They weren't even tribes - just an extended family of
Semite Hebrews, probably a part of the great Semitic invasion of Egypt
under the Hyksos period.

Saying these things were written when there WERE tribes smacks of
wanting to "explain away" Jacob - except that Jacob hinted of a time
when there would be no more Israel. Like other writers did.

Christendom as a Flavian conspiracy

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