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Jesus isn't Jewish

TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Desert Snake said:
No, it actually isn't.
Click to expand...

It is, because the subject concerns a human named Jesus born some 2000 years ago.
Not about pre-abrahamic times.


If you want to separate 'religion' from religion texts, then your statement needs no clarification.
Click to expand...

The religious text also speaks of a human named Jesus born some 2000 years ago.

However, these are religious texts, and if you don't want to deal with that, then your statements are non contextual.
Click to expand...

The topic concerns the man Jesus, born some 2000 years ago.
Your religious texts mention this to.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
It is, because the subject concerns a human named Jesus born some 2000 years ago.
Not about pre-abrahamic times.




The religious text also speaks of a human named Jesus born some 2000 years ago.



The topic concerns the man Jesus, born some 2000 years ago.
Your religious texts mention this to.
Click to expand...
Hence why the religion is 'Jewish', ie Judaism. Xianity is Judaism. Converts to Xianity are Jewish.
Jesus is of Juda, book of Hebrews.

Thanks for clarifying.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Desert Snake said:
Sure, I would anyway. However so does John 7, and Galatians, and Jesus religion traditionally.

So, if you don't reject those verses, then one might say the jews were rectified somehow, or such. Though, in Galatians, physical circumcision is noted, it just can't be combined with salvation via faith. In other words, even Galatians rejects physical circumcision.
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Yes, Saul/Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles so they didn't have to be circumcised, but Jews had to be circumcised like Jesus because that's there's covenant with the God of Abraham.

For the life of me I don't understand the obstacle to understanding this.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Desert Snake said:
Hence why the religion is 'Jewish', ie Judaism. Xianity is Judaism. Converts to Xianity are Jewish.
Jesus is of Juda, book of Hebrews.

Thanks for clarifying.
Click to expand...

No, converts to Christianity are NOT Jewish unless they were born Jewish to a Jewish mother.,

Messianic Jews too often don't know a thing about Judaism or Christianity.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
sooda said:
No, converts to Christianity are NOT Jewish unless they were born Jewish to a Jewish mother.,

Messianic Jews too often don't know a thing about Judaism or Christianity.
Click to expand...
Judaism accepts converts, they are considered 'jewish'. So, why you are saying it isn't the same for Xianity, a jewish religion, not sure.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
sooda said:
Christians do not require circumcision .. Jews do.
Click to expand...
The Christian Bible disagrees with your definitions,
Book of Romans
Book of Galatians
John 7

'For one isn't a jew outwardly'..

•••
This is all explained in the Christian Bible.

You are going against the Christian religion, the teachings of Jeshua, and traditional belief, concerning this.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Jeshua is part of a religion, yet Jesua is also teaching within a religion context. This, again, the religion perspective of Jesus, we could say. Jeshuas religion, in other words.

Jeshuas religion, isn't your speculation. And clearly this is an Israelite religion, however not to get sidetracked , here, because Jeshua is teaching within an extant religion.


The jews who disagreed with certain things, in other words, already had different beliefs.

Jeshua is of a certain religious context, and teaches within that context. It isn't "only Jesus", who has these beliefs.

Now, concerning bible inerrancy, added verses, so forth, comparison can be made, of what Yeshua said. This leaves a few verses questionable, and either from translation , or added verses, then these academically could be excluded. These tend to relate to the 'riddler yeshuah', sometimes encountered in the gospels.

•
Something concerning John 7,

This isn't 'riddler yeshuah', it's Yeshua teaching something to certain jews, that was already a belief. Context here, is important. One might say this is an "obvious" difference, between a spiritual based religion, and a 'rite' religion, regardless of how the practice of circumcision was ascribed some sort of meaning, beyond a regional cultural practice, [egyptians, certain non jewish tribes.
•••
This doesn't need much explanation.
 
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sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Desert Snake said:
The Christian Bible disagrees with your definitions,
Book of Romans
Book of Galatians
John 7

'For one isn't a jew outwardly'..

•••
This is all explained in the Christian Bible.

You are going against the Christian religion, the teachings of Jeshua, and traditional belief, concerning this.
Click to expand...

Do you know the difference between the OT and the NT?
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
sooda said:
Do you know the difference between the OT and the NT?
Click to expand...


When arguing in a 'bible context' the whole bible is used, because it's accepted context, unless the argument specifies otherwise.

Otherwise, arbitrary question, and you won't be able to separate the ot from the nt in a canonically based religion, which you clearly claim. You should be asking yourself that question, instead of deriving contradictory theories.
 
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D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
sooda said:
Do you know the difference between the OT and the NT?
Click to expand...
You aren't arguing in an nt only context, which would be fine. Try that.

That is what would make sense to your statement, not trying to refute the nt in an ot context, without correlation.

Totally doesn't make sense.

No correlation yet refutes in the same religion context?

...
 
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Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Desert Snake said:
Why don't you explain how 'before Abraham', means 'Jewish'.
Click to expand...

That is rather simple.....Jesus said that he came from heaven...there are no nationalities in heaven. He was not Jewish or any other religion before he was born into the Jewish nation through his mother. All Jews were born into a dedicated nation and were obligated by birth to abide by God's laws. As prophesied, Jesus was born into the nation which descended from Abraham.

In the words expressed by Jesus at John 8:56-58 you can see that Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his deity.

" Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (NASB)

According to Strong's Concordance, the words rendered "I AM" is "eimi" which means "to be, to exist, to happen, to be present". It doesn't mean "I AM" at all. To misinterpret this scripture to allude to a trinity is dishonest to say the least. God's name doesn't mean "I AM"....it never did.

"I AM" is supposedly the meaning of God's divine name YHWH, (יְהֹוָ֞ה) but if you read it in the Tanach you will see that the NASB's rendering is incorrect...but the meaning given by Strongs is spot on.

In Exodus 3:14-15 God gave the meaning of his name.....

"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

So "I AM" was never the meaning of God's name in the first place. John 8:58 has no connection to Exodus 3:14-15.
Jesus existed in heaven as a spirit son of God before he came to earth on a rescue mission. That means that he existed before Abraham.....but he was not God, nor was he Jewish.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Deeje said:
That is rather simple.....Jesus said that he came from heaven...there are no nationalities in heaven. He was not Jewish or any other religion before he was born into the Jewish nation through his mother. All Jews were born into a dedicated nation and were obligated by birth to abide by God's laws. As prophesied, Jesus was born into the nation which descended from Abraham.

In the words expressed by Jesus at John 8:56-58 you can see that Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his deity.

" Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (NASB)

According to Strong's Concordance, the words rendered "I AM" is "eimi" which means "to be, to exist, to happen, to be present". It doesn't mean "I AM" at all. To misinterpret this scripture to allude to a trinity is dishonest to say the least. God's name doesn't mean "I AM"....it never did.

"I AM" is supposedly the meaning of God's divine name YHWH, (יְהֹוָ֞ה) but if you read it in the Tanach you will see that the NASB's rendering is incorrect...but the meaning given by Strongs is spot on.

In Exodus 3:14-15 God gave the meaning of his name.....

"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

So "I AM" was never the meaning of God's name in the first place. John 8:58 has no connection to Exodus 3:14-15.
Jesus existed in heaven as a spirit son of God before he came to earth on a rescue mission. That means that he existed before Abraham.....but he was not God, nor was he Jewish.
Click to expand...

Agreed, before Abraham, means 'not Jewish'.

However, how do you explain, John 4:22
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Desert Snake said:
Agreed, before Abraham, means 'not Jewish'.

However, how do you explain, John 4:22
Click to expand...

Jesus is addressing the Samaritan woman at the well and she expressed surprise when he spoke to her. Jews did not speak to despised Samaritans. When Jesus went on to relate the woman's unusual marital status.... "The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews."

Jews and Samaritans were related way back, and had rival temples on rival mountains.....you can see from his words that Jesus was foretelling a time in the future where no earthly mountain would serve as God's seat of worship. He said to her as a Samaritan, that the God she worshipped was one she didn't really know, because salvation was from the Jews. In saying that he was not saying that salvation was only going to include Jews because God's promise to Abraham included people of all nations (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16)....Jesus was saying that the means of salvation was to come from, or through the Jews.... In Jesus’ day, rather than having a racial or political connotation, the name "Samaritan" usually referred to those who belonged to the religious sect that was located in the vicinity of ancient Shechem and Samaria. The sect’s adherents held certain beliefs that were distinctly different from those of Judaism.
Their acceptance of the Pentateuch, gave the Samaritans the basis for believing that a 'prophet greater than Moses' would come. (Deuteronomy 18:18-19) In the first century Samaritans were looking for the coming of Christ the Messiah and the woman expressed her belief in that prophesy. She was actually the first person to whom he revealed his identity as Messiah. (John 4:25-26)
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Deeje said:
Jesus is addressing the Samaritan woman at the well and she expressed surprise when he spoke to her. Jews did not speak to despised Samaritans. When Jesus went on to relate the woman's unusual marital status.... "The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews."

Jews and Samaritans were related way back, and had rival temples on rival mountains.....you can see from his words that Jesus was foretelling a time in the future where no earthly mountain would serve as God's seat of worship. He said to her as a Samaritan, that the God she worshipped was one she didn't really know, because salvation was from the Jews. In saying that he was not saying that salvation was only going to include Jews because God's promise to Abraham included people of all nations (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16)....Jesus was saying that the means of salvation was to come from, or through the Jews.... In Jesus’ day, rather than having a racial or political connotation, the name "Samaritan" usually referred to those who belonged to the religious sect that was located in the vicinity of ancient Shechem and Samaria. The sect’s adherents held certain beliefs that were distinctly different from those of Judaism.
Their acceptance of the Pentateuch, gave the Samaritans the basis for believing that a 'prophet greater than Moses' would come. (Deuteronomy 18:18-19) In the first century Samaritans were looking for the coming of Christ the Messiah and the woman expressed her belief in that prophesy. She was actually the first person to whom he revealed his identity as Messiah. (John 4:25-26)
Click to expand...
Samaritans who converted, perhaps. The Samaritans made the same mistake as the jewish leadership did, later. There is nothing that says, salvation is from the Penteteuch.
 
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