Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Honestly, I just don't care about this "issue". I don't take scripture literally, or sacrosanct. So I don't get caught up in these kinds of interpretive arguments or contradictions. I read scripture more as a form of literary artifice, rather than ideological dogma, so I find paradox imaginative rather than consternating.Why no reply?
Ecclesiastes 9:5 is talking about the physical man. The man of flesh. You die; you know nothing. But that doesn't mean the soul or spirit know nothing.What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?
By my reckoning this is the third time you have posted exactly the same question, in different places. I have reported it.What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?
I suspect you're only genuinely interested in the JWs response, so why don't you just PM Deeje?Why no reply?
What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?
If you look at the context of what Jesus said, you'll notice he is talking about the resurrection of the dead and how Moses teaches it. Moses teaches the resurrection of the dead by saying that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because to God they are alive and not dead. And the reason is because there is to be a resurrection of the dead.Mark 12:26-27 is another good one.
Jesus makes the point that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob cannot be dead because God is not the God of the dead but the living. That means they are (presently) alive somewhere or Jesus wouldn't say this.
You see God had called Himself "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" long after these 3 patriarchs had died. So this meant that to God; they still lived. And so they do.
If you look at the context of what Jesus said, you'll notice he is talking about the resurrection of the dead and how Moses teaches it. Moses teaches the resurrection of the dead by saying that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because to God they are alive and not dead. And the reason is because there is to be a resurrection of the dead.
God often "calls things that be not as though they were". Another good example is when He told Abraham that he was a father of nations even before Abraham had any children.
That doesn't explain Jesus talking with Moses.If you look at the context of what Jesus said, you'll notice he is talking about the resurrection of the dead and how Moses teaches it. Moses teaches the resurrection of the dead by saying that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because to God they are alive and not dead. And the reason is because there is to be a resurrection of the dead.
God often "calls things that be not as though they were". Another good example is when He told Abraham that he was a father of nations even before Abraham had any children.
That doesn't explain Jesus talking with Moses.
moorea944 said:Look at Acts 2. Peter is also mentioning things about death and heaven going, because..... there are some people that have it wrong. Peter says that David never went to heaven. His grave is still with us. People dont die and go to heaven. They are dead until resurrection. David was even told that in 2 Sam 7!
Jesus even says in John chapters 7,8 and 13, when he was talking about when he would go to heaven, that nobody would EVER follow him there. We also look at Lev 16 with Heb 9.
We should always let the bible speak for it's self!!!
There seems to be great confusion over the question of who goes to heaven. Some imagine that all of Christ's followers will go there, and some have other ideas.....what does the Bible actually say about this?
John 14:23...Jesus said...
"In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be."
Jesus said that he was going away to 'prepare a place' for his apostles 'in his Father's house'. Clearly he was speaking about heaven.
The apostle Paul spoke of those with the "heavenly calling", (Hebrews 3:1) so again some had an expectation of going to heaven, so that where Jesus was, they would be also. Those who received an anointing with God's spirit had in inordinate desire to go there.
In John's Revelation he tells of a limited number who are chosen by God
Revelation 14:1-3
"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . .And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."
The ones chosen to go to heaven are a limited number who will have a specific role in the heavenly kingdom. "Mount Zion" is not the same as the one on Earth....this is "heavenly Jerusalem" the true seat of God's worship and the location of the grand spiritual temple of God where priests will officiate.
Revelation 20:6 tells us...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."
Christ and his 144,000 will rule from heaven as "kings and priests".....these it says are resurrected "first"....Jesus promised to return and take them "home"....so their resurrection would have to wait until he came back for them.
Paul speaks of this.....
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16....
"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."
"The dead in Christ" are the chosen ones....the elect. All would sleep in death until Christ's return......all of Christ's elect had that desire to be with their Lord in heaven. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
Jesus told his disciples that they could not come with him when he left because it was not time for them to take up their positions as yet......so many things had to be accomplished on earth before the Kingdom would begin its rule. Jesus gave a composite sign that would alert his disciples that the "last days" or "the end of the age" was close. (Matthew 24:3-14) The Kingdom would "come" but not in the way most expected. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:42-44)
So when Christ began his rulership, only then would his "joint-heirs" join him in heaven in the "first resurrection". None of them knew that they would sleep for centuries.
Romans 8:15-17
"For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."
Just as Christ was glorified in his resurrection, so too the chosen ones will experience a glorious transformation in their resurrection to heavenly life.
The general resurrection of the dead (those not chosen for heavenly rulership) would not take place until all things in connection with the kingdom had been established on earth. (John 5:28-29) True to Jesus promise..."the meek will inherit the earth", to be ruled by the best government that mankind could ever have....finally God's will can be done "on earth as it is in heaven".
Revelation 21:2-4
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
What a wonderful prospect! "New Jerusalem" brings Christ's rulership to the Earth, to redeemed "mankind"....eliminating all causes of pain and suffering.
Yes indeed. This is what I believe the Bible teaches.
Where does the Bible say that the 144,000 are resurrected first?
The 144000 Jews as firstfruits and together with the early martyrs of Christ, beheaded followers of Jesus were already been resurrected first and are in heaven now.
Revelation of John 20:4-5
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.