• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If it could be proved no god exists

ecco

Veteran Member
3 - the failure of anyone to describe how something came from utterly nothing, or for
what reason.
This one deserves its own response.

Just a few thousands of years ago the same type of argument was made to support a flat earth.
Just a few thousands of years ago the same argument was made to support gods throwing lightning bolts.
Just a few thousands of years ago the same argument was made to support geocentricity

"We Don't Know" may be more uncomfortable than GodDidIt, but it is far more honest and, time after time, proven true.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Interesting you should mention this.
I used to live for a short time, in mea shearim (Jerusalem) which is an extremely orthodox Jewish street/area.
One morning, I was talking with some of the Hasidim there(black hats, peots etc), when one of them said he was an atheist.
I was really shocked and asked why he lived, what seemed to me, an extremely difficult life, keeping all those mitzvot, every day.
He said that he just loved that way of life. Period.

This also reminds me of another person who went thru an orthodox conversion, which took several years. I asked if during that time if she was ever asked(by the Rabbonim) if she believed in God(which incidentally she did) and she said no. It was always about observance/how she was living.
I know several Jews who are observant who are atheists; even more who are agnostic. One of them simply says, "I am a Jew first and an atheist second." They attend synagogue, say the prayers, the whole schlabang. The truth is that Judaism holds a framework for righteous living and has a community that supports this. It is the sort of lifestyle that is the best one can have.
 
Last edited:

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
This one deserves its own response.

Just a few thousands of years ago the same type of argument was made to support a flat earth.
Just a few thousands of years ago the same argument was made to support gods throwing lightning bolts.
Just a few thousands of years ago the same argument was made to support geocentricity

"We Don't Know" may be more uncomfortable than GodDidIt, but it is far more honest and, time after time, proven true.

There's that "distinction" thing I mentioned before.
A good argument must handle the distinctions.

In Genesis there are TWO aspects to the creation account
1 - God created the heavens (meaning everything we see, feel, hear etc..)
2 - God created the earth and life (which is a natural process of the "heavens"
ie gravity, atoms, physical law etc..)

It was a profound mystery to generations of bible reading people that "God
commanded the seas to bring forth life." Meaning, God didn't create life,
instead He :"commanded", and what "created" life was the physical laws
governing chemistry.
Now, certain religious people pushed back against Darwin and his "little
warm pond." They were defending their beliefs, not the bible. In fact that
little warm pond, on land, was probably "how it happened" and indeed, the
bible says life came from land before the sea.

And that's why the churches opposed the idea of "biochemistry"
Life wasn't chemical, they said. But that's not what the bible says - it
says that life comes from the clay and from the dust of the earth.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Right, because no god-fearing theist has ever engaged in human-trafficking, or other, much much worse, things :rolleyes:

Also, are you saying that human traffickers are all atheists? :rolleyes:

.

Are you saying that human traffickers are following God? You can say "I believe in a God" as much as you can say "I believe I am a car" when you are in a garage.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
@A Vestigial Mote
@TagliatelliMonster
@QuestioningMind

giphy.gif


FOR MANY OF those who do not believe in God and ask this question if God exist, they insist that this question be answered according to their own standard which means you have to show them only “evidences” they wanted to see and dismiss otherwise. Because they already set their mind to accept only evidences they wanted to see, they insist to show to them only those they want, and will easily dismiss otherwise.


“SHOW ME YOUR GOD”

“Show me your God?” This what many of those who don’t believe in God wanted in order for them to believe that God truly exists. However, the Bible explicitly tells us that God is spirit:

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 NKJV)

Because God is spirit, we cannot see Him or God is invisible:

“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” (I Timothy 1:17 NKJV)

It is a fact that not because we cannot see it, it means it does not exist. Like air, atom, electricity and many else, these are not visible, but it does not mean that they do not exist. “Life” itself cannot be seen, heard or touched, but there are proofs or evidences that “life” truly exists.



It is ridiculous that a person insists to show him “life” itself or else he will not believe it exists. A living thing grows, moves and many else that proves that it has life. What do you of a person that after you show him other evidences that life truly exists but immediately dismiss these evidences and still insists to show him life itself or else he will not believe that it exists?



Thus, we must not insist to “show God” for He is an invisible spirit. However, although we cannot see God Himself, but it does not mean that He does not exists.



“PHYSICAL EVIDENCE PLEASE”

Others demand for “physical” or “material” evidence. However, because God is spirit, He is not only invisible, but He has no flesh and bones:

“And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (Luke 24:38-39 NKJV)

If we cannot show you any physical or material evidence to prove that God exists, you will easily conclude that God does not exist? Then, you must also dismiss the “Big Bang theory” because there are no physical or material evidence to prove that it really occurred. Others might point to the elements in the universe, the stars, the planets and others as material evidences for the Big Bang theory. However, existence of the elements, suns and others does not follow that these were created through the “Big Bang.” No direct evidence that one can show that these are created through the Big Bang. Also take note, “missing link” in the so-called “evolution of man” means lack of material of physical evidences.



My point is, why insisting for physical or material evidences or else you will not believe that God exists? Lacking or having no material or physical evidences is not sufficient to conclude that God does not exist because there are other evidences that can prove that God truly exists, unless you are ridiculous enough having already set your mind to accept only those evidences you want to see and dismiss otherwise.



“SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE”?

Proving through experimentation? However, how can we experiment God? Because of this, can we conclude that God does not exist? If so, why hang on “evolution”? Evolution cannot also be proven through experimentation.

Concerning God, the Book of Job rhetorically asks, thus:

“Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than heaven-what can you do? Deeper than Sheol-what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth And broader than the sea.” (Job 11:7-9 NKJV)

New Living Translation renders the following verse as follows:

“Can you solve the mysteries of God? Can you discover everything about the Almighty? Such knowledge is higher than the heavens—and who are you? It is deeper than the underworld—what do you know? It is broader than the earth and wider than the sea.” (Job 11:7-9 NLT)


EVERYTHING WILL ONLY END
UP IN NON SEQUITUR


Many attempt to show evidences according to man’s standard to prove the existence of God, like the “designer and design” theory and other “scientific evidences,” but this only end up in “non sequitur” (it doesn’t follows).



However, the same is also with the other side. Not because there is a Big Bang it follows that there is no God. Not because there is evolution it follows that there is no God. Not because you can explain everything through science it follows that there is no God.



Everything will only end up in Non Sequitur, in an endless debate.



Thus, let us not attempt to prove the existence of God through man’s standard. Skeptics must open their mind and stop insisting to show to them evidences of the existence of God which they prefer and dismiss otherwise.





THE STRONGEST EVIDENCE
THAT GOD REALLY EXISTS


The strongest evidence that God truly exists is the words of God written in the Bible. We are certain that Aristotle, Plato, Socrates and many more existed because their work survived.

Proving that the Bible is indeed the words of God proves that God really exists. There is no word of God if there is no God. If the Bible is the word of God, thus there is God who spoken those words. Why are we certain that the Bible is indeed the words of God?

 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Are you denying that there are thousands of Christian sects?
Are you denying that some Christians believe in the Trinity and others don't?

Don't duck and dodge. Just try answering.
I did answer.

Let's try this one more time. How many of the "thousands of Christian Sects" believe there is more than one God?

Don't duck, don't dodge... just answer.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are just repeating your arrogant assertion that you know what God wanted.
I did not say that I KNOW, I said I DEDUCED.

For all I KNOW, God already thinks that He has provided ample proof through Baha’u’llah and that I just don’t CALL it proof.

Actually that is more likely and I even found some verses that say that there is proof.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

“Say: The verses We have revealed are as numerous as those which, in the preceding Revelation, were sent down upon the Báb. Let him that doubteth the words which the Spirit of God hath spoken seek the court of Our presence and hear Our divinely-revealed verses, and be an eye-witness of the clear proof of Our claim.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 258

The logic of a puny human leads you to believe you know what God wants. That's ludicrous.

I don’t know what God wants, unless it was revealed by Baha’u’llah.
Would you care to apply your logic and explain why an omniscient God did not know that Adam would disobey him?
Adam did not disobey God; that is just a story in the Bible.

But God knew that many people would believe that story was true and become Christians. :D

God also knew that in the 19th century He would send Baha’u’llah and that Baha’u’llah would straighten out all of the misconceptions and misinterpretations people have regarding the Bible.

God also knows that these misconceptions and misinterpretations will continue unabated until more people recognize Baha’u’llah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yeah... many theists have claimed that. And whenever I ask for examples of such "evidence", all I get is hearsay and a piling on of more claims, as if claims can be supported by more claims.

Do you wish to give it a swing?
Save some time and go straight to your BEST and MOST CONVINCING piece of evidence.
The Revelation of Baha’u’llah and everything that surrounds it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
1. you have yet to share this evidence.
2. read the thread title, read the OP, learn what a hypothetical is.
1. I have provided evidence on this forum many times.
2. I know what a hypothetical is.
“Something either exists or not. Proof does not make anything exist, proof is just what atheists want.
For example, if a man committed a murder and it could not be proven, that man still committed the murder....”


But you can't know it. If you can't demonstrate that X murdered Y, then X is set free and ruled "not guilty".
It does not MATTER what he is ruled. He is still guilty. He is a guilty man who got away with murder.
“It is the same with God, God can exist even though that can never be proven.”

And the same goes for bigfoot, unicorns, the kraken, leprechauns, fairies, all other gods, etc.
That is a red herring.

That does not MATTER if God can be proven to exist. If God exists, God exists. He is simply a God that atheists do not see, but He is not invisible because He manifests Himself in every age in the form of a Messenger who is both divine and human.
“Obviously, God does not want us to be able to prove He exists as a fact, although we can prove that to ourselves.”
C:\Users\Home\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png


Either we can prove it or we can't. Make up your mind.
We CAN prove that God exists to ourselves but we CANNOT prove it to anyone else.
You could prove it to yourself right now IF you looked at the evidence and believed it was proof.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This shows that you reading all your life doesn't mean you cant learn something everyday. I read about this difference I believe when I was in school and just starting to read some classics but have completely lost it.

Thanks for reminding. Its actually a big deal.
Yes, and it is an even bigger deal when it comes to discussions about whether God exists or not and whether certain individuals are Messengers of God or not. :D
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
nothing cannot produce something

We are not talking about dark energy creating something
or the vacuum inflating
or order coming out of chaos

... because there was no energy, no vacuum and no chaos.

What does the inflating universe "push into"??
nothing.
The same nothing that existed before physics, or numbers....
This sort of nothing lies outside of science. Therefore the
existence of the universe lies outside of science.

So what produced god? If you say it was always there it gives the lie to your statement, 'nothing cannot produce something'.
1. I have provided evidence on this forum many times.
2. I know what a hypothetical is.

It does not MATTER what he is ruled. He is still guilty. He is a guilty man who got away with murder.

That is a red herring.

That does not MATTER if God can be proven to exist. If God exists, God exists. He is simply a God that atheists do not see, but He is not invisible because He manifests Himself in every age in the form of a Messenger who is both divine and human.

We CAN prove that God exists to ourselves but we CANNOT prove it to anyone else.
You could prove it to yourself right now IF you looked at the evidence and believed it was proof.

The human mind is capable of believing anything to be true, however crazy it might be.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The human mind is capable of believing anything to be true, however crazy it might be.
The human mind is also capable of believing what is true and God gave us the innate capacity to recognize truth.

“.... I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143
 

night912

Well-Known Member
the world would fall into chaos because there would be no standard of morality.

Why do you suppose that would be the case? There are many atheists who are very moral, loving, and charitable people. You seem to be implying the only reason to do good is because a god is going to reward or punish your behavior. Why not do good because you care about other people, regardless of whether or not a god exists?

I agree somewhat of what KenS said. Like what Nietzsche said about "god is dead." Because some believe in a god so much that their morality is based on the existence of god. There will be a lot of people that will fall into chaos and nihilism. It's evident by how so many people believe that if no god exist or that if god was to die tomorrow, chaos will follow. That's just reality. Although there may be chaos at first, eventually, humanity will bring order to the chaos. Humanity will evolve.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I know several Jews who are observant who are atheists; even more who are agnostic. One of them simply says, "I am a Jew first and an atheist second." They attend synagogue, say the prayers, the whole schlabang. The truth is that Judaism holds a framework for righteous living and has a community that supports this. It is the sort of lifestyle that is the best one can have.
John 3:36

Shouldn't give advice that might be wrong
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
So what produced god? If you say it was always there it gives the lie to your statement, 'nothing cannot produce something'.

You know that idea of the universe being eternal, just recycling endlessly?
The bible says that God is eternal.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I agree somewhat of what KenS said. Like what Nietzsche said about "god is dead." Because some believe in a god so much that their morality is based on the existence of god. There will be a lot of people that will fall into chaos and nihilism. It's evident by how so many people believe that if no god exist or that if god was to die tomorrow, chaos will follow. That's just reality. Although there may be chaos at first, eventually, humanity will bring order to the chaos. Humanity will evolve.

I recall, back in the 1950's and 1960's there was this argument
about whether we can keep a moral order if there was no God.
My Gallup Poll profile below shows what happened - we indeed
maintain a moral order, but by redefining what it means to be
moral.
"Smok'n, drinkun' and gambl'n" used to be synonymous with 'sin."
Now sin is about global warming or child abuse. We can recycle
and save the local trees as the new virtue, but what has happened
is that we have externalized sin to someone or something else.
There's no more "living in sin", not only when we shack up with
someone we aren't married to, but we don't live in sin if we gamble,
watch porn, swear, enjoy sexualized behavior and so on.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
I recall, back in the 1950's and 1960's there was this argument
about whether we can keep a moral order if there was no God.
My Gallup Poll profile below shows what happened - we indeed
maintain a moral order, but by redefining what it means to be
moral.
"Smok'n, drinkun' and gambl'n" used to be synonymous with 'sin."
Now sin is about global warming or child abuse. We can recycle
and save the local trees as the new virtue, but what has happened
is that we have externalized sin to someone or something else.
There's no more "living in sin", not only when we shack up with
someone we aren't married to, but we don't live in sin if we gamble,
watch porn, swear, enjoy sexualized behavior and so on.

Don't forget the Biblical god character got an unmarried girl pregnant even though she was betrothed to a human. Jesus liked his drink, he made sure it didn't run out at that wedding party.
 
Top