Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?
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Can you answer my post?Confused
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it be easier for others if you took the time to
copy and paste the verses here instead of expecting
people to go look them up?
copy and paste the verses here instead of expecting
people to go look them up?
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
If you click on the bible passages above in my first post they go right to a translation naturally.Try it.
Skwim
Veteran Member
It's still a laziness that says."I don't really care what you think." In which case I, for one, won't bother telling you.If you click on the bible passages above in my first post they go right to a translation naturally.Try it.
.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
If you click on the bible passages above in my first post they go right to a translation naturally.Try it.
Okay, I'll do it for you
Thessalonians (NT)
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Corinthians (NT)
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Ecclesiastes (OT)
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the
memory of them is forgotten.
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
Okay, I'll do it for you
Thessalonians (NT)
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Corinthians (NT)
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Ecclesiastes (OT)
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the
memory of them is forgotten.
Thanks!
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Thanks!
A lot of OT Jews did not believe in the afterlife.
Strangely, this POV was not fleshed out in the OT.
Solomon wrote this - we believe. But in another Ecc
verse he said the dead are happier than the living.
So there you go.
But Solomon was getting old by the time he wrote
this. He was becoming a very dark person. Compare
Ecc to his first Song of Solomon, and then his middle
aged (?) Proverbs.
The bible tells us that Solomon fell from God's grace.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Indeed.
This goes to show the need to interpret the bible, in context, rather than slavishly taking every word at face value.
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
In 1 Thessalonians 5:10 it says we live together with jesus while asleep (dead).This sounds like 1 Thessalonians 4:14.
What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?
1 Thess 4:14...
"For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus."
The ones whom Jesus 'brings with him' are those who have been resurrected during the time of his "presence" (parousia) in these last days. Jesus has been ruling all this time and he came back for his anointed ones "sleeping in death" around 100 years ago according to our calculations of when the "the time of the end" began. (1914 CE) The Bible gives us no way to calculate when they end...that is in God's jurisdiction. (Matthew 24:36)
The picture painted by the scriptures becomes clear when you study the whole Bible. You can't take verses here and there and expect them to make sense. The Bible has a narrative that flows from Genesis to Revelation. You have to know what happened in the beginning....how that connects to the middle and how it all comes to its foretold conclusion.....only a Bible study will help you do that. Otherwise you will just keep going round and round in the same circles.
In Thessalonians 4 (read the whole chapter) Paul is talking about the return of Jesus Christ to awaken those of the heavenly class who were sleeping in their graves. That is all of those with "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) from the first century onward, would be raised out of their graves together, at that time. This is the "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:6) Those who are alive during this period, (who are of that calling) would have no need to "sleep", so that if they die at this time, their resurrection would be instantaneous.....but when the finale` comes, when Jesus manifests himself as judge of all the world, any who are left on earth will be taken straight to heaven, "transformed in the twinkling of an eye". This is what some call "the rapture".....but it is just a transformation from a physical body to spiritual one.
2 Cor 5:6-9...
"So we are always of good courage and know that while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we are walking by faith, not by sight. 8 But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord. 9 So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him. "
This is the desire implanted by God's spirit in his anointed ones. They have a very strong desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord......this anointing overrides any natural inclination to remain on earth even with close family members (wives, husbands, siblings or children) who may not be of that heavenly calling. Regardless of their current state, they will serve the interests of God's kingdom.....either here on earth (absent from the Lord) or in heaven where they will rule with him.
For most of us, we desire to live in paradise because that is where God put us in the first place. But it wasn't in heaven...paradise was right here on earth. God has to implant a stronger desire to leave the earth and go to a place that the anointed have never even been before. Those who go to heaven relinquish everything earthly....their flesh, their relationships, their desires, their gender, their nationality, their language...everything that made them human.
So how do these verses tie in with Eccl 9:5? Let us tie in verses 6 and 10...
Eccl 9:5...
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."
Since the first century "the dead in Christ" have 'slept' like everyone else....but when Jesus began ruling as King, he raised up his anointed ones "first" and stationed them in heaven, ready for the takeover of the Kingdom to rule this earth. (Daniel 2:44) The "last days" or the "time of the end" as Daniel prophesied, was a time for action on the part of Jesus' disciples. As part of the sign of Christ's "presence" (not his coming) many things had to take place including a global preaching work before the "end" came. (Matthew 24:14)
exchemist
Veteran Member
Er, yes? Wouldn't you expect that?
nPeace
Veteran Member
@Deeje
"The picture painted by the scriptures becomes clear when you study the whole Bible. You can't take verses here and there and expect them to make sense. The Bible has a narrative that flows from Genesis to Revelation. You have to know what happened in the beginning....how that connects to the middle and how it all comes to its foretold conclusion.....only a Bible study will help you do that. Otherwise you will just keep going round and round in the same circles."
So so true.
"The picture painted by the scriptures becomes clear when you study the whole Bible. You can't take verses here and there and expect them to make sense. The Bible has a narrative that flows from Genesis to Revelation. You have to know what happened in the beginning....how that connects to the middle and how it all comes to its foretold conclusion.....only a Bible study will help you do that. Otherwise you will just keep going round and round in the same circles.
"So so true.
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?
How I read it it says jesus's followers souls are coming back from heaven to earth In 1 Thessalonians 4:14.And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.I thought paul was just talking about how good it would be to be in heaven in general.But verse 9 to me sounds like some people who have died.Are already with God.I am so confused.
Because if paul knows that the dead are gone until everyone comes back to life like in daniel 12:2.Why the confusion.Maybe you can explain.Deejee.Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
Why no reply?
nPeace
Veteran Member
I noticed there was a reply Frank.Why no reply?
You asked... Why the confusion.Maybe you can explain.Deejee.
However, if you go to Deejee's
post, the answer is there."The picture painted by the scriptures becomes clear when you study the whole Bible. You can't take verses here and there and expect them to make sense. The Bible has a narrative that flows from Genesis to Revelation. You have to know what happened in the beginning....how that connects to the middle and how it all comes to its foretold conclusion.....only a Bible study will help you do that. Otherwise you will just keep going round and round in the same circles.
"You appear to be going in circles, but the fault doesn't appear to be with the scriptures, Frank.
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 2 Corinthians 5:6-9?When you read it?When compared to Ecclesiastes 9:5?
How I read it it says jesus's followers souls are coming back from heaven to earth In 1 Thessalonians 4:14.And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.I thought paul was just talking about how good it would be to be in heaven in general.But verse 9 to me sounds like some people who have died.Are already with God.I am so confused.
Am I the only person who read it this way?
Sorry if I have posted this before.
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How I read it it says jesus's followers souls are coming back from heaven to earth In 1 Thessalonians 4:14.And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.I thought paul was just talking about how good it would be to be in heaven in general.But verse 9 to me sounds like some people who have died.Are already with God.I am so confused.
There are no souls in heaven. 1 Thess 4:14 is talking about the “elect” who are already in heaven (not souls, but resurrected humans who have been given a spiritual body) these are already in their positions in the heavenly kingdom.....ready to take over rulership of this earth once Jesus has cleansed it of all wickedness. (Daniel 2:44) It can “come” at any time but it will be after the greatest tribulation that humans have ever experienced, (Matthew 24:21) it will be then become earth’s only government....permanent and incorruptible. Peace will then be guaranteed for all of earth’s inhabitants.
I already explained their desire to go to heaven. It was given to the elect to override their natural desire to remain on earth. It is a powerful drive in them to join their Lord in heaven. It makes being earth bound hard to endure, but they faithfully carry out their assignment to preach, whilst they are still in the flesh.
The “first resurrection” took place when Jesus was given his kingship. This is something he had to wait for because of God’s scheduling of events. (Psalm 110:1-2) The prophet Daniel saw Christ’s coronation in a vision hundreds of years before it took place. (Daniel 7:13-14) We believe that this began in 1914 when it was foretold that the “last days” or “the time of the end” would be signalled by a range of world events, the first of which was unprecedented warfare. The “First World War” as its name suggests, the first time that all nations on earth were engaged in a global conflict.
Why no reply?
I am in Australia Frank....in a completely different time zone to you. I ask for your patience.
All your questions can be answered by a Bible study which Jehovah’s Witnesses will happily conduct with you, Frank. All you have to do is ask. There is no cost or obligation.