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Reason is the Most Important Driver of Human Moral Progress?

Q

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
Slavery has not been abolished, it's just been very cleverly disguised as "free enterprise" (credit/debt).
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No one is claiming that immoral actions aren't still occurring. ALL I've stated is that we are a MORE moral society now that we've abolished slavery as an accepted institution. Is enslaving people with debt an immoral practice? YES! Is enslaving people with chains an even MORE immoral practice? YES!
 
Moz

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
QuestioningMind said:
The greater rights included the right to own property, the right to enter into a contract, the right to vote, the right to pursue career opportunities. You don't even have to go back in history. In nations that have NOT adopted secular laws and instead still reply on religious laws, women STILL can't vote, own property, enter in to contracts, freely work, drive a car, or even go out in public without an escort. These are simply FACTS. No 'feminist propaganda' involved. That you can sit there and claim that women have NOT had fewer rights and opportunities suggests that it's YOU have been brainwashed by the conservative right that appears so very afraid of acknowledging the inequalities of the past and that still exist in the present.

What I've claimed is that SECULAR laws have done FAR MORE to advance our morality than RELIGIOUS LAWS ever have. I noticed that you didn't respond to the reality that for 2000 years the Christian religion did nothing to abolish slavery... and it was a nations using SECULAR laws that finally accomplished it.
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Hi
What i find strange is that you bang on only about the poor women and ignore that most men had just as few rights though out history. It does not fit the narrative that men have been the oppressors of women through out history so you alter the picture to hide the near equal suffering of men. That you are not mentioning Universal sufferage or Universal rights to private property and only the women is an example of the identity politics that attempt to pit tribe against tribe in the pursuit of power. It is a poor view of history and a poor way to view humankind.

Men have LOVED their Mothers, Wives and Daughters through out history and to paint it as a never ending oppression of women by men is a filthy dirty dangerous LIE.

......................................................
On the slavery thing. It is such a big issue spread over so many cultures and administered in many different ways. Is it all forms that you find unacceptable?
Slavery or human bondage of one form or another was an economic necessity in a world not able to consistently feed itself. It is fine for you to want it to have it done away with earlier but please flesh out a scenario where that was possible? You seem at least willing to discuss your underlying reasoning so once we get past the emotion and empathy tell me how the pre-modern world organizes mass agricultural labour or large infrastructure projects on a national level without some form of communal oversight. Once economic alternatives to slavery were available it was fazed out pretty quickly in the Western World, so that would indicate to me that it was economics and not morals as the driver.
..............................................
What I've claimed is that SECULAR laws have done FAR MORE to advance our morality than RELIGIOUS LAWS ever have.
No you have NOT. What you have actually agreed to is that economic and technological advances have allowed the space for certain human advances in equality. Remember.... It doesn't matter if it economics that led us to do so, the reality is that laws created by human beings finally led to the abolishing slavery
I think it does matter.You have also seemed to admit that this so-called human moral progress is dependent on circumstance and prosperity and that if things went bad that these morals may be merely transient, it is hardly the triumph of human wisdom.

Peace
 
Last edited:
Q

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Moz said:
Hi
What i find strange is that you bang on only about the poor women and ignore that most men had just as few rights though out history. It does not fit the narrative that men have been the oppressors of women through out history so you alter the picture to hide the near equal suffering of men. That you are not mentioning Universal sufferage or Universal rights to private property and only the women is an example of the identity politics that attempt to pit tribe against tribe in the pursuit of power. It is a poor view of history and a poor way to view humankind.

Men have LOVED their Mothers, Wives and Daughters through out history and to paint it as a never ending oppression of women by men is a filthy dirty dangerous LIE.

......................................................
On the slavery thing. It is such a big issue spread over so many cultures and administered in many different ways. Is it all forms that you find unacceptable?
Slavery or human bondage of one form or another was an economic necessity in a world not able to consistently feed itself. It is fine for you to want it to have it done away with earlier but please flesh out a scenario where that was possible? You seem at least willing to discuss your underlying reasoning so once we get past the emotion and empathy tell me how the pre-modern world organizes mass agricultural labour or large infrastructure projects on a national level without some form of communal oversight. Once economic alternatives to slavery were available it was fazed out pretty quickly in the Western World, so that would indicate to me that it was economics and not morals as the driver.
..............................................
What I've claimed is that SECULAR laws have done FAR MORE to advance our morality than RELIGIOUS LAWS ever have.
No you have NOT. What you have actually agreed to is that economic and technological advances have allowed the space for certain human advances in equality. Remember.... It doesn't matter if it economics that led us to do so, the reality is that laws created by human beings finally led to the abolishing slavery
I think it does matter.You have also seemed to admit that this so-called human moral progress is dependent on circumstance and prosperity and that if things went bad that these morals may be merely transient, it is hardly the triumph of human wisdom.

Peace
Click to expand...

What i find strange is that you bang on only about the poor women and ignore that most men had just as few rights though out history. It does not fit the narrative that men have been the oppressors of women through out history so you alter the picture to hide the near equal suffering of men. That you are not mentioning Universal sufferage or Universal rights to private property and only the women is an example of the identity politics that attempt to pit tribe against tribe in the pursuit of power. It is a poor view of history and a poor way to view humankind.

Men have LOVED their Mothers, Wives and Daughters through out history and to paint it as a never ending oppression of women by men is a filthy dirty dangerous LIE.

You REALLY need to work on your reading comprehension. Please respond to what I WROTE, not what you imagine you think I meant. IF you read what I wrote you'll see that I AGREED that BOTH men and women have had a hard lot in life for most of history. However, that does NOT change the reality that throughout history MEN have enjoyed GREATER rights, freedoms, and opportunities than WOMEN. Now, just because a man COULD beat their wives and children with impunity does not mean that I think EVERY man did so. Just because every man had the RIGHT to abuse the women in his life does NOT mean that I think EVERY man abused the women in their lives.

Instead of addressing issues I have never advocated, simply acknowledge that men HAVE enjoyed more freedoms, rights, and opportunities in history than women have. IF that were not the case women would never have had to fight for the right to vote or to own property or to get any job that they are qualified to perform. I am NOT the one painting a picture of history in which there was a NEVER ENDING OPPRESSION OF WOMEN. You, however, seem to be threatened by the reality that traditionally women have had fewer rights, freedoms, and opportunities than most men. Simply acknowledge that it was one true, but thankfully we've evolved beyond such misogyny.

What I've claimed is that SECULAR laws have done FAR MORE to advance our morality than RELIGIOUS LAWS ever have.
No you have NOT. What you have actually agreed to is that economic and technological advances have allowed the space for certain human advances in equality. Remember.... It doesn't matter if it economics that led us to do so, the reality is that laws created by human beings finally led to the abolishing slavery
I think it does matter.You have also seemed to admit that this so-called human moral progress is dependent on circumstance and prosperity and that if things went bad that these morals may be merely transient, it is hardly the triumph of human wisdom.

Again, read what I wrote, not what you imagine I meant. The laws that abolished slavery and gave women equal rights, regardless of what prompted them, were enacted as secular laws in a secular society. They were NOT based upon any religious laws. Christianity and other religions had thousands of years to end slavery and the oppression of women, but it took man-made secular laws to finally accomplish it. Human secular laws certainly haven't solved all of our problems... but we actually started addressing such problems ONLY after we decided that secular laws should trump religious laws. Nations that put religious laws above secular laws behave in far less moral ways than nations that don't.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Shadow Link said:
The biggest problem for extreme liberalism is trying to prove that a non-intrinsic value has extrinsic value for the whole. Mostly made up of stuff & nonsense -- A.K.A, "Lets just promote the idea that *past A* was way worse than *modern B* without making a reference point to our *modern B* agenda, representing it therefore natural and mute so that *modern B* should thus gain more support by claiming and encompassing 'reason' alone."
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For instance "love your neighbor." Modern thinking could be "every man for himself. and come up with solid reasoning to support it. It become a matter of value. For the individual taking care of oneself is valuable but for the group it is not as valuable as taking care of the group.
 
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