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firedragon

Veteran Member
Thanks for your response to the OP.

I would see the New Testament and Gospel accounts as being Divinely inspired. I doubt if you share that view. Having accepted the Gospels, the text is clear enough about Jesus the Christ being a Messiah that fulfils prophecy from the Hebrew Bible and a time when a future Messiah or Christ will come. So that belief Baha'is would clearly share most Christians.

If the Gospels are not seen as authentic then scepticism is inevitable. :D

Your argument is like "faith vs scepticism". Another would argue that your argument could be rated "Blind faith vs scepticism". Both are dismissive arguments, like the one you used above.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Your argument is like "faith vs scepticism". Another would argue that your argument could be rated "Blind faith vs scepticism". Both are dismissive arguments, like the one you used above.
See it as you will. I was acknowledging another’s belief, not dismissing it.

Some beliefs are based to a large extent on religious text and its interpretation. The seal of the Prophets based on the Khatam an-Nabiyyin is an example in Islam. Beliefs about the second coming as outlined in the Olivet discourse depends largely on interpretation of the Christian Bible.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
See it as you will. I was acknowledging another’s belief, not dismissing it.

Some beliefs are based to a large extent on religious text and its interpretation. The seal of the Prophets based on the Khatam an-Nabiyyin is an example in Islam. Beliefs about the second coming as outlined in the Olivet discourse depends largely on interpretation of the Christian Bible.

Who wrote the Olivet discourse?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That is correct. Muhammad didn’t write the Quran yet we both believe the words written were those spoken by Muhammad.

You are committing the Tu Quoque fallacy.

The question was specifically about the Synoptic Gospels that record the Olivet discourse. If you cant answer say so, but committing logical fallacies is not the way to go.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
You are committing the Tu Quoque fallacy.

The question was specifically about the Synoptic Gospels that record the Olivet discourse. If you cant answer say so, but committing logical fallacies is not the way to go.

That’s a needlessly defensive answer. I believe the Synoptic Gospels contains the Teachings of Jesus. I have my reasons. Who wrote the Gospels is of secondary importance.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That’s a needlessly defensive answer

A defensive answer is "The Tu Quoque fallacy" you did brother. No offence, but telling me "Just like you I am too" is a defensive answer, and you are making a very distant assumption about my beliefs to justify yours.

Your response was like a a patient responding to a doctor "you smoke too" which is a Tu Quoque fallacy. And especially when you are assuming that the doctor smokes too because of some reason.

Dont respond to that with another fallacy or telling me "its a defensive answer".
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
A defensive answer is "The Tu Quoque fallacy" you did brother. No offence, but telling me "Just like you I am too" is a defensive answer, and you are making a very distant assumption about my beliefs to justify yours.

Your response was like a a patient responding to a doctor "you smoke too" which is a Tu Quoque fallacy. And especially when you are assuming that the doctor smokes too because of some reason.

Dont respond to that with another fallacy or telling me "its a defensive answer".

The problem is your analogy. You’re comparing my beliefs about the Gospels containing Divine Revelation to smoking. Its comparing apples with oranges.

I compared the words of Jesus in the Gospels to the words of Muhammad in the Quran. Its a fair comparison.

So what fallacy am I guilty of now?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The problem is your analogy. You’re comparing my beliefs about the Gospels containing Divine Revelation to smoking. Its comparing apples with oranges.

I compared the words of Jesus in the Gospels to the words of Muhammad in the Quran. Its a fair comparison.

So what fallacy am I guilty of now?

the analogy was not about your belief and smoking, the example was to explain to you what a Tu Quoque fallacy is.

You want me to give another example of what a tu quoque fallacy is?

Q: You believe in a prophecy in a book you dont know who wrote?
A: You believe in one too.

Brother. Thats another example of a Tu Quoque fallacy. If you try a bit, maybe you will understand.

Cheers.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But you believe in its prophecies, though you dont know who authored them?

As Adrian has responded, I will only add that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha and Shoghi Effendi have all informed us that the Bible has been preserved as the Word of God and contains guidance for us all.

It has been said that it is not a word for word accurate portrayal, but all that is needed for our spiritual guidance is contained therein.

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I see it much, much differently. All the major religions clearly foretell in unmistakeable terms a time when a Great Teacher will arise to bring humanity together and restore love and harmony in the world and it is my unshakable belief that it is precisely because humanity has rejected this Teacher that we have had two major world wars, countless other conflicts and civil wars, a nuclear arms race, drug addiction, racism, suicides and our societies are enveloped in corruption.

Religious leaders instead of teaching their followers that there’s truth in all religions on the contrary have for centuries poisoned the minds and hearts of their followers against any religion but their own leading to wars and bloodshed and hate, prejudice and disunity when their job is to promote love and unity amongst men. The same with race and national prejudices.

The false gods of racism, nationalism and materialism have dominated our world and kept us divided when in reality we are one. We are one people, one human family and that is what this Great Teacher came to remind us of. He came to remind us all of our oneness that we can live in peace if we reject the divisive philosophies taught by those with selfish ambitions.

He, the Promised One taught that all religions are equal and that we should mix with each other in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship even going to each other’s churches, temples, mosques and pagodas to share prayer and meditation.

But religious leaders rejected such inclusivity in favour of exclusivity and claims of superiority which in the end only appease the ego but do nothing for the Cause of love and harmony in the world.

So my belief is the Promised One did come and His call for us to unite and reconcile our differences was rejected resulting in two major wars with more suffering to come because of our choices to remain divided.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
As Adrian has responded, I will only add that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha and Shoghi Effendi have all informed us that the Bible has been preserved as the Word of God and contains guidance for us all.

It has been said that it is not a word for word accurate portrayal, but all that is needed for our spiritual guidance is contained therein.

Regards Tony

Brother. With all due respect, it is not an acceptable response to me. You may worship or revere Bahaullah, and his sons as infallible or how ever you innterpret them so if they say something that maybe absolute word of God for you, but not for me. I am telling this because you must understand that just telling me they said so is not valid for me, it maybe valid for you.

I dont generally like to state faith statements but if even the prophet Muhammed supposedly said something and if I find that particular statement as fallible and invalid due to a scholarly analysis of the text I will definitely reject it and have done so.

Just saying "we believe" is not a good enough argument. To me it sounds like blind faith. That is not to disrespect you, this is why I am in this forum, to discuss and debate.

Hope you understand.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I would see the New Testament and Gospel accounts as being Divinely inspired

I doubt if you share that view
I certainly share the view "Divinely inspired"
So, you see, "stvdv inspired post" easily leads to doubts about what stvdv meant:D

The word "inspired" in "Divinely inspired" implies errors can be there. "written down by the Divine" would not have these human errors; unless human translated.

Having accepted the Gospels, the text is clear enough about Jesus the Christ being a Messiah that fulfils prophecy from the Hebrew Bible and a time when a future Messiah or Christ will come
I accept the Gospels as Divinely inspired. Common Sense tells that "Human `non-Divine-inspired` editing/adding can still be done IMO:D

So that belief Baha'is would clearly share most Christians.
I thought Bahaullah came, because some update was urgently needed. Some major errors were addressed, if I remember well. That is what I meant.

If the Gospels are not seen as authentic then scepticism is inevitable. :D
What is the definition of "authentic"? Jesus did not write it down, so it's the perfect blend of "hearsay" + "indoctrination" + ....

My Master made it very clear, how important it is to live in the "present moment", not dwell in the past of fantasize about the future
These Christians fantasize about the future a lot. Even Sai Baba said that He will come again. But also warning us "don't wait for that, live NOW"
 
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