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Is Something Happening to our Youth?
- Thread starter Kenny
- Start date
If God X has a son, and God Y does not, then unless 1 = 0, the two are different.
Confirmed by all Jews I know.
Ciao
- viole
Spirituality is a human quality that everyone has. It basically means being connected to life, which includes yourself, others, and the world. It has to do with one's own existence and the quality of one's being in the world. It's relatively a simple thing to understand, that expresses itself in many forms, such as human compassion, love, art, music, poetry, kindness, etc. All of those are spiritual forms.
It has little to do with beliefs in magical beings and goings on. Those are all externalized views of what is an internal reality. Being an atheist, or a humanist, or a rationalist, does not mean you don't have spirituality. It only means you don't think of these things in supernaturalistic, mythological and magical terms. There is no need to, as mythic religions do not own all things spiritual.
Of course, yes. There is a lot of nonsense beliefs, and hypocrisies when it comes to things like spirituality. Hell, even Jesus agrees with this, and laid it out clearly that "By their fruits you shall know them". What you pointed out, rightly so, is that they are not really spiritual at all, but just wearing it like a shirt lapel that says, "Righteous", so others will trust them, as they continue on in their narcissism.
For me, because spirituality is something that actually does bring about a transformation in one's life, that actually does bear "good fruit" in my life and the lives of those around me, this says that there is the real deal, and the facade which is not the real deal, but just the ego. Being spiritual is not the domain of the religion. It's human reality, for both believers in God, believers in other Gods, humanists, atheists, children, adults, etc.
It's not an exclusive thing, and it is also more than compatible with reason, logic, and science. I refused to give the power of it over to religious fundamentalists, who are interested in other things besides Love.
Good. This is good to hear. Then you are familiar with that bond of connection with those around you. That can be a spiritual thing, transcending simple language and ideas. It happens at the "heart" level. That's the domain of the spiritual. It has to do with connection and moving beyond just one's own world. It's stepping outside of yourself into something large, and that's what makes it "spiritual", meaning it is not bound and contained in boxes or categories of ideas. It's free of that, and helps illuminate our understandings of ourselves and the world. It's less a "thing" as it is an illumination from deep experience as a human.
If you are familiar with Immanuel Kant's three critiques, it summarizes Western thought into three domains, or basic categories. They can be boiled down as Truth, Beauty, and Goodness, or Reason, Aesthetics, and Morality. So when I say Goodness is a thing, yes it is. It's something we participate within, and give life to, or diminish from it in our lives. It is an abstraction, yet it holds a very reality reality as thing greater than the sum of the parts.
You can think of it like culture. Culture is a thing, that transcends any one individual. It is a "we space" that is its own thing greater than the individuals participating within it. It has its own forces and influences, it moves and has being of it own, in a lot of ways. Even though it is created by individuals, it is both informed and influenced by the participants, as well as informs and influences its participants. It is an emergent reality that has a structure of its own, and cannot be reduced down to a component level analysis, to put it in the terms of the complexity sciences.
So when I say Goodness is a thing, that is very much truth. In fact, it's foundational to existence. Kant includes it in his Big Three, as it were.
When you rightly point out that "good and bad" are relative value judgments, I of course agree with that. People think in these dualistic terms of opposites. What is considered good in one context, may be bad in another. This is the nature of relative reality. And I have no issue with that. I very much recognize the truth of this.
But what I am talking about in this context is the nature of the Absolute, which is nondual. By stating that it is nondual, that means it cannot be looked at and understood in dualistic language or categories, dividing good and bad as opposites. "God" cannot be divided in such ways, and remain Absolute. If it is split in half, it's half, not whole.
I realize this is abstract as hell, but I'll try to state what I see anyway as it does allow logic and reason a sure enough footing in order to step beyond into nondual thought. The Absolute, is not a propositional truth. It's not "this is true and that is false". Truth, with a capital T, or nondual Truth, is fundamental to existence. It is what is Real. Same with Goodness. Same with Beauty. In nondual reality, there are no opposites.
Lest you think me mad, are you familiar with Taoism? The Yin/Yang symbol? You see the opposites in relation to each other, light arises from darkness, and darkness arises from light. But rather than understanding them as "light" and "dark" in opposition to each other, they are in reality one thing. In the West we may call that symbol Yin and Yang, but that is not how it is presented. It is not Yin and Yang, but YinYang. One thing. It is the Yin/Yang symbol (nondual), not Yin and Yang (dualistic).
So in nondual reality, There is no darkness. There is no badness. Rather it is one thing understood on a spectrum of reality. There is Light. And darkness does not exist as a thing, but rather is the lowest point on a spectrum of Light. "Darkness" is not a reality as a thing opposite to light. But rather, it is the absence of light, dim to the point of nonexistence of light. Nonexistence is not a reality. Something must exist for it be real.
So, same thing with Goodness. It is Absolute, foundational to reality. "Evil" does not exist. There is only a lack of goodness on a spectrum of Good. What we call evil, is the absence of goodness in the world. On the other end of that spectrum, is increasing goodness as we move towards that foundational Goodness which grounds us in Reality.
So when I say Goodness is Divine, that is very specifically why it is. It is the Ground of all being itself, of all existence itself. It gives Life, or being, to all. The lack of that, or the diminishment of that, creates non-existence, or unreality, or death. Non-being, is not reality. To move away from Truth, Beauty, and Goodness, is a move towards non-being, or death.
That's a lot to process, but I'm not nuts.
This has grounding on many legs I could go into some length and detail to cover. It's not "magical thinking", even though at one level, all reality is magical. Anyone who looks deep enough underneath the covers will see it is beyond comprehension, and it is a grand Whole of connected parts. Call it a "Reality" system.
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RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
I believe that the youth are turning to spirituality that is not biblical but that others have said is "worldly". I also think that the Bible said this would happen.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Generally speaking, there's an overall downturn in religious affiliation and attendance by percent within all religions worldwide, and surveys indicate this is due to a variety of factors.
In the Scandinavian countries, for example, weekly attendance is under 10%. As one theologian remarked, "In Europe, Protestantism is dead and Catholicism is dying".
An increasing number of people when asked simply do not believe attendance at services is all that important. Some others have an ax to grind against "organized religion". Some others just prefer resting for the weekend because of our rapid pace of life. Here in the States, the busiest shopping day of the week is now Sunday.
Also, there's far less social pressure to belong to a religion and attend services. One thing that I have seen locally is that the only churches "holding their own" tend to be those of the "health & wealth" variety that seems like going to a rock concert. Luther warned against doing that as people would likely attend services for the wrong reason, namely just for entertainment and socializing. IMO, I have mixed feelings about that approach even though personally I'm not fond of attending services like that-- too loud and too "busy"-- probably a byproduct of my age.
I think that is just bad hermeneutics. But I understand why you would think that way.
If God has a Holy Spirit:
Isaiah 59:21
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My Spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
And Elohyim is plural but yet He said they are one, it seems understandable to me.
Usually it is our finite minds that have the problem
That is true... that is what the Bible infers. But it also says, "Where sin doth abound, grace does more-so abound" and it does talk about a huge end-time harvest where the reapers catches up to the sower.
I guess I have hope.
Thank you, a most thoughtful reply. I don't particularly worry about dual/nondual much, because it doesn't take me anywhere useful. What I did find useful, however, was a book I read some years ago by a French philosopher, who basically says that in the absence of deities, we can have "fidelity" (community through adherence to a shared inheritance of values) without having to have "faith". And instead of seeing humans as erring mini-images of a deity, we would do better to see them as animals, and of their triumphs say: "Not bad, for an animal!" (The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality: Andre Comte-Sponville)Spirituality is a human quality that everyone has. It basically means being connected to life, which includes yourself, others, and the world. It has to do with one's own existence and the quality of one's being in the world. It's relatively a simple thing to understand, that expresses itself in many forms, such as human compassion, love, art, music, poetry, kindness, etc. All of those are spiritual forms.
It has little to do with beliefs in magical beings and goings on. Those are all externalized views of what is an internal reality. Being an atheist, or a humanist, or a rationalist, does not mean you don't have spirituality. It only means you don't think of these things in supernaturalistic, mythological and magical terms. There is no need to, as mythic religions do not own all things spiritual.
Of course, yes. There is a lot of nonsense beliefs, and hypocrisies when it comes to things like spirituality. Hell, even Jesus agrees with this, and laid it out clearly that "By their fruits you shall know them". What you pointed out, rightly so, is that they are not really spiritual at all, but just wearing it like a shirt lapel that says, "Righteous", so others will trust them, as they continue on in their narcissism.
For me, because spirituality is something that actually does bring about a transformation in one's life, that actually does bear "good fruit" in my life and the lives of those around me, this says that there is the real deal, and the facade which is not the real deal, but just the ego. Being spiritual is not the domain of the religion. It's human reality, for both believers in God, believers in other Gods, humanists, atheists, children, adults, etc.
It's not an exclusive thing, and it is also more than compatible with reason, logic, and science. I refused to give the power of it over to religious fundamentalists, who are interested in other things besides Love.
Good. This is good to hear. Then you are familiar with that bond of connection with those around you. That can be a spiritual thing, transcending simple language and ideas. It happens at the "heart" level. That's the domain of the spiritual. It has to do with connection and moving beyond just one's own world. It's stepping outside of yourself into something large, and that's what makes it "spiritual", meaning it is not bound and contained in boxes or categories of ideas. It's free of that, and helps illuminate our understandings of ourselves and the world. It's less a "thing" as it is an illumination from deep experience as a human.
If you are familiar with Immanuel Kant's three critiques, it summarizes Western thought into three domains, or basic categories. They can be boiled down as Truth, Beauty, and Goodness, or Reason, Aesthetics, and Morality. So when I say Goodness is a thing, yes it is. It's something we participate within, and give life to, or diminish from it in our lives. It is an abstraction, yet it holds a very reality reality as thing greater than the sum of the parts.
You can think of it like culture. Culture is a thing, that transcends any one individual. It is a "we space" that is its own thing greater than the individuals participating within it. It has its own forces and influences, it moves and has being of it own, in a lot of ways. Even though it is created by individuals, it is both informed and influenced by the participants, as well as informs and influences its participants. It is an emergent reality that has a structure of its own, and cannot be reduced down to a component level analysis, to put it in the terms of the complexity sciences.
So when I say Goodness is a thing, that is very much truth. In fact, it's foundational to existence. Kant includes it in his Big Three, as it were.
When you rightly point out that "good and bad" are relative value judgments, I of course agree with that. People think in these dualistic terms of opposites. What is considered good in one context, may be bad in another. This is the nature of relative reality. And I have no issue with that. I very much recognize the truth of this.
But what I am talking about in this context is the nature of the Absolute, which is nondual. By stating that it is nondual, that means it cannot be looked at and understood in dualistic language or categories, dividing good and bad as opposites. "God" cannot be divided in such ways, and remain Absolute. If it is split in half, it's half, not whole.
I realize this is abstract as hell, but I'll try to state what I see anyway as it does allow logic and reason a sure enough footing in order to step beyond into nondual thought. The Absolute, is not a propositional truth. It's not "this is true and that is false". Truth, with a capital T, or nondual Truth, is fundamental to existence. It is what is Real. Same with Goodness. Same with Beauty. In nondual reality, there are no opposites.
Lest you think me mad, are you familiar with Taoism? The Yin/Yang symbol? You see the opposites in relation to each other, light arises from darkness, and darkness arises from light. But rather than understanding them as "light" and "dark" in opposition to each other, they are in reality one thing. In the West we may call that symbol Yin and Yang, but that is not how it is presented. It is not Yin and Yang, but YinYang. One thing. It is the Yin/Yang symbol (nondual), not Yin and Yang (dualistic).
So in nondual reality, There is no darkness. There is no badness. Rather it is one thing understood on a spectrum of reality. There is Light. And darkness does not exist as a thing, but rather is the lowest point on a spectrum of Light. "Darkness" is not a reality as a thing opposite to light. But rather, it is the absence of light, dim to the point of nonexistence of light. Nonexistence is not a reality. Something must exist for it be real.
So, same thing with Goodness. It is Absolute, foundational to reality. "Evil" does not exist. There is only a lack of goodness on a spectrum of Good. What we call evil, is the absence of goodness in the world. On the other end of that spectrum, is increasing goodness as we move towards that foundational Goodness which grounds us in Reality.
So when I say Goodness is Divine, that is very specifically why it is. It is the Ground of all being itself, of all existence itself. It gives Life, or being, to all. The lack of that, or the diminishment of that, creates non-existence, or unreality, or death. Non-being, is not reality. To move away from Truth, Beauty, and Goodness, is a move towards non-being, or death.
That's a lot to process, but I'm not nuts.
Let me also ask, @Windwalker if you think your view of spirituality is akin to the one held in mind by @Ken, who posted the OP? Because, of course, it was Ken and those who think like him that I was responding to.
And yet, this is what is happening in Denmark:
Copenhagen - three service:
Hillsong London:
Central London: 4 services
New Bermondsey: 3 services
North London: 2 Services
Guildford: 2 Services
Tonbridge: 3 Services
Newcastle: 3 services
Liverpool: 2 services
And more thought the spiritually dead places (figure of speech) of Europe and beyond... They actually line up, sometimes around the block to get it.
It speaks of a renewed desire to know God. IMV
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Depends.
I see a pep rally, not spirituality.
Depends.
I think people are tired of shallow meaningless drivel.
When I was a kid/teen, I knew I knew better than my parents or grandparents. It turns out ... I did for the most part, but not for the right reasons.
Why? Studies show that religious upbringing will increase chances the kids are selfish short-sighted brats. I'm a theist, and if I ever had kids, I would not bring up religion per se until they were approaching puberty. Either they learn how to be moral or they don't. Religions confuse the issue.
Why should a child's first thought about doing wrong things be 'how can I get out of it'?
But religions want people to be members of them. They are (depending on the group) only powerful because of political heft given to them by the powers that be, and that's not God, that's the 1%.
Please explain theists with crushing depression. I've had suicidal ideation most of my life. Prophets in the bible clearly were mentally off.
Jesus was very religious and he suffered and died.
That's less "they forgot God" and more "the elite writing the stories got miffed they weren't as in control as they wanted to be."
El or Yahweh or Baal?*
*Baal is a bit of a cheat because a baal was a god, so even Yahweh and El were baals, technically.
Well, the problem with Christianity, at least, is that Jesus told us to judge the tree by the fruit. It's just inconvenient for Christian power players when people judge Christianity's fruit.
Jesus said if your right arm causes you to sin, to cut it off. If Christianity is making people sin, should it NOT be abandoned?
Yeah, but people have always been going for the wrong reasons. They are social clubs. You don't need a specific location for an omnipresent being.
I don't have this problem. It's an attempt to downplay various polytheistic tangents. Christianity comes from a very Hellenized sector of Judaism. Gods all over the Mediterranean had loads of kids. I mean, Zeus ALONE ....
Written by priests who need various factions to unite under one banner.
Anti-polytheism is less about being upset about the idea of multiple gods and more about being upset all the tithes aren't going to your pocket. Please see: Ankhenaton.
I would think God wouldn't be such an incompetent gardener that He can't tell crops from weeds. Plus, He made all the plants, so why call them weeds in the first place? Why should we call what God creates unclean, after all?
Take away the flashy lights and loud music and they won't show up. Most of Jesus' audience was there for the free healthcare. Had he done nothing but do sermons, would anyone have shown up?
I'll respond more later, but to quickly answer this, Ken's understanding of these things is how Ken sees the world. I see the world quite differently than Ken, though in our own ways we all breathe the same air, as you and I do as well.
Understandable. At a certain place in life, it does play a significant role. But not everyone drinks that tea.
I don't have too much of an issue with this. I think it is helpful to realize that we are in fact very much part of this biosphere. We are animals, and follow what evolution has handed us, programmed us effectively enough to survive through habituations. But there is of course something more than just this single view of humankind. Being human, has a whole different strata of being that is notably more sophisticated and of greater depth of realization in our self awareness than animals, which as far as we know, do not rise into. We are a different species, quite literally as well as figuratively.
I like how Plotinus put it. "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts." We have our feet in our biological roots, but our imagination, that which is the mind of inspired man, reaches into the domain of the "gods", or that which is transcendent to our immediate awareness. That is the Divine which I mentioned. We may be flesh, but with the soul we soar to heaven.
I don’t know. i know a few Jews. You say you share the same God with them. They do not return the courtesy. They actually think Christians delude themselves to believe that. All of my Jewish friends tell me that Allah is actually closer to what they believe than Jesus and such.
I mean, it is obvious. Hermeneutic or not, it is obvious. A triune God does not look at all like a not triune God. If logic still makes sense, even if we speak of religion and stuff.
The best we can say is that the God of Islam and the God of Jesus share a common close God ancestor. The God of the Jews, I suppose.
Like us and gorillas. And that is why they are somewhat similar, but not identical.
Ciao
- viole
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Many people are spiritual, just not religious. This is a good thing, because religions often say, "We have the only truth," which is not true.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
If by "spiritual" you mean "religiosity", then, speaking from my own experience of general tendencies, I think that religiosity is seriously on the decline.
And I also feel like where it is not decline, it is actually moving in the opposite direction, towards fundamentalism instead.
I think that religiosity and spiritual are two different things. Religiosity binds people.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Then what do you mean by "spiritual"?
For example....
I like to go and sit behind my drums, put on headphones with some funky track and just jam to it.
I'll typically close my eyes while playing and move into some kind of "trance" or "in the zone" where everything else will basically "cease to exist" in my mind.
It will just be me, the backing track and the drums. I'll be burried into it so much that by the time I'm done, it will feel like "waking up" and I'ld typically need half a minute or so to "come to my senses" into "reality" again.
It's kind of hard to explain the type of experience this is, but I think you'll know what I mean.
For me, this is like some sort of "meditation". It's a moment where all my emotions and stress that got stacked up during the time preceeding the session, will flow out of my body into the music. Like a poet who "writes it off", I as a drummer will "play it off".
Afterwards, I typically feel extremely relaxed and "satisfied". As if I just had an awesome meal after being hungry like a lion.
If you ask me "what's the most spiritual experience you had or have?", then such drum sessions would be my answer.
So, does that count for you, as a "spiritual" experience?
I believe music has a spiritual component (although not all music -- like the song "La Cucaracha")
Meditation is a spiritual component (IMV)
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I'm not sure if you really answered my question... It's kind of ambigous.
It's a yes / no question really: does that (such a drum session) count for you, as a "spiritual" experience?
If no, why not?